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Radio Interview Submitted by: Major General Raymond E. Haddock, Retired |
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Live Radio Interview By Dr Galloway, WTIX 690 AM
Mr. Demuse: Its a pleasure to get him for you and also its very nice of you to invite me to join in. He's a fascinating gentleman with a career both in the past and in the present, and a lot of good stories to tell so it will be a good talk. Dr. Galloway: B. J. Austin is going to be joining us in just a moment and she helps me with the program every day. General Haddock, you have had some interesting commands and one of the reasons that you are here today is, I hope, to talk about some of these things. There's been a lot of conversation and news lately about what's going on in Europe and the changes that are taking place. On this program I recently had two people who were missionaries that went to Albania and they talked about some of the things that are happening. Didn't you just come from the Berlin area? MG Haddock: I was the Commander in Berlin at-the time the Wall began to crumble. I was actually in command well before that time. During the period of the crumbling of the Berlin Wall and the unification of Germany, I was the senior American official there, both in a diplomatic sense and a military sense, in charge of what the United States was doing there in that island behind the Iron Curtain. Dr. Galloway: The Berlin Wall beginning to crumble was a tremendous event. Did you know that was going to take place, had there been warnings and signals before? MG Haddock: Well, I would like to say that I knew that it was going to take place but I don't think anybody knew that the Berlin Wall was going to come down. We had seen indications that the Wall was becoming more porous. For example, there was an International Monetary Fund conference held there a year before the Wall came down and, even though the Wall was supposedly impenetrable, when it made economic sense or provided an economic benefit for the East to allow people to go through the Wall, they would do it. For example, there weren't enough hotel rooms on the western side off the Wall to accommodate all the people that came into Berlin for that IMF conference. So they opened up the Wall to let people go to the hotels in the East. We had seen indications that the Wall was becoming more porous but nobody could have predicted that the Wall was going to come down in the way that it did. Dr Galloway: It came down so rapidly, it was like overnight. You began to see people have freedom that they never experienced before. You know what's always fascinated me is that a country like Germany, that was split, you had to have relatives, particularly in Berlin, you had to have relatives an both sides that you missed, that you wanted to communicate with, how did people handle that situation? MG Haddock: There were so many heartrending stories of families that were split and I knew many of those people that simply for a period of almost 29 years, while the Wall was there, they were not able to move across. They were not able to talk to their relatives in the other side of the city. It was a very inhuman kind of thing and, when you look at the Wall, you saw the grey Wall there and right behind the Wall was a place called the death strip. So you couldn't even stand and then wave at somebody across the Wall because there was a huge separation. There was a Wall, a death strip, with a big ditch in the middle of the death strip to keep people from driving through, and then a Wall on the other side. Sometimes those Walls were separated by several hundred meters. And then inside that Wall were guards with dogs and, in certain periods, there were land mines and other deadly devices to keep people from going through. Dr. Galloway: You had a lob, your job then was diplomatic and military too. What were the military parts of your job? MG Haddock: Well, as the Commander, I was responsible for the military forces in Berlin. We had 6,000 American soldiers there; soldiers, airmen, and a few Navy personnel so I was responsible for them and they were soldiers who were prepared to fight to defend Berlin. We had a military mission. I also had, as colleagues, British and French Commanders who at time of conflict would come under my command. So in total there we had about 12,000 military forces that would operate under my command in time of conflict. Ms. Austin: Well General, I have many memories of my own visit to Berlin some years back but the one thing I remember more than anything else is the total difference between West Berlin and East Berlin. You could be at any given point and on one side it is full of high-rise glass steel buildings, cafes and you could look just 100 yards away and see empty streets and playgrounds and just cold lights lighting things but practically no people to be lited. Was that a basically accurate vision of the two Berlins or was that just a luck of the draw where I happened to be standing, wherever I was? MG Haddock: I think if you, as a Westerner and not a Berliner, went across into the East (we had opportunities to qo across where other people didn't) everything was so depressing; the people, they were not happy. There was no happiness, there was no joy on the streets. If a few people would gather together on the street to talk, there would be secret police come and try to listen in on what they were doing. And, if they could identify those people, then they would identify them and accuse them of some kind of conspiracy simply because they were getting together. So the idea of going to a restaurant and having a little gathering those kind of things just didn't happen in the East, because there was tremendous suspicions of everybody. MS. Austin: You know I always had the picture of East Berlin that there was just a sense of paranoia, that was all around and the color grey. I never thought of any colors associated with East of the Wall. It seemed to me- that everything there was kind of monochromatic. MG Haddock: When you look at not only East Berlin, but particularly East Berlin, but also what was Eastern Germany at the time, you saw buildings and you saw the structures that were simply not tended to for a period since the War. They didn't have any maintenance, they didn't have any paint, there was no one taking care of them. If you can imagine New Orleans for a period of least 45 years with nothing being done to take care of it, imagine what the color would be like here. Any paint that was on the outside of the buildings would have faded and the streets would be in disrepair. It was a very sad experience to travel in the eastern part of Germany. Dr. Galloway: You know that this couple that I mentioned that went as missionaries to Albania, they said the same thing. Its hard for me to visualize why people would put up with that. In Albania they had Italian television, and I'm sure the Germans knew what was going on on the other side of the line. This discrepancy should have made people uncomfortable enough to want to do something about it yet they didn't change. That went on for 45 years. You would think there would have been some uprising. MG Haddock: In fact, there was an uprising which began in 1989. If I reflect back to the period February 1989, let me Just give you a couple of things which kind of tie this together in February 1989, people were still trying to escape across the Wall. A young man by the name of Chris Jeffrey, the last man to be killed at the Wall. He was killed, I believe it was on the 15th day of February 1989, as he and a friend were trying to escape across the Wall. They made it across one Wall, they had gotten across the death strip, and they were ready to climb the second Wall and shots rang out and a guard by the name of Igo Heimrich (he was just convicted- of manslaughter 3 days ago and is now in prison) shot Chris Jeffrey and another guard shot at the individual, who was with him, didn't kill him. This is only one indication of the desperation of the people. Just 3 or 4 days after that there was another indication of the desperation of people trying to escape from that "prison" which was East Berlin, the prison of a city surrounded by walls. An engineer and his wife had decided that they were going to escape into West Berlin with a balloon. They took just pieces of plastic, the kind of plastic that you would use to cover up construction equipment or something like that, and they taped them together. As an engineer, he had figured out how much natural gas would be required to put into the balloon to lift the ,two of them and go across the Wall. They were out in a field where there was a gas outlet. They were filling the balloon with gas and all of a sudden the East German police saw them and they started Coming for them. At that moment the wife lost her nerve. The balloon was filled with gas and the husband said come on, we've got to go. If we don't go we are going to be captured but she lost her nerve. She wouldn't get on the balloon, because they were just going to hang on with their hands there was no basket to carry them across the Wall, this was a very simple affair. They were going to hang on with their hands until the balloon carried them freedom in the West. She lost her nerve, he said I've got to go because I will be in prison if I don't. Because the weight was different, she was not there to provide balance to the balloon, he went too high. Dr. Galloway: Oh my God. MG Haddock: And so he went up 15,000 feet or so in the air. It was a cold February night and he froze. His body dropped to the ground. His body was in freedom but he was gone. Dr. Galloway: My God. MG Haddock: That was still taking place and then this desperation showed itself in the summer of 1989 as the people of Berlin, continuing to feel closed in, made their vacations in Hungary. And as you will recall, they had camped out in the West German Embassy in Hungary, saying we demand asylum, we want to be allowed to -move to freedom. Eventually, the Hungarian Government, which was one of the most important countries to bring pressure in October 1989, on the East German State. It was, I believe, on the llth day of September 1989, that they said we are opening the border to the West. This was a key event that put pressure on East German Government so that they allowed this exodus to take place. Then in October, there was the 40th Anniversary of the formation of East Germany. They were celebrating and so they had a big celebration to proclaim victory and to say we have done all of these wondrous things with our society. Shortly after that, in fact the night after the celebration, there was a demonstration in Berlin that turned violent. Then there were other demonstrations in other cities, in Leipzig and in Dresden. The demonstrations began with small numbers. First there was just a few hundred in Berlin and then they went to 50,000; and then up to 100,000; then 200,000. On the Monday before the fall of the Wall, there was a demonstration of 500,000 in Leipzig. On Thursday the Wall came down. But the Wall didn't open because of a decision of the East Germany Government. The Wall came down by a mistake of the East German Government.
There was a man by the name of Gunther Schabowski, who was the spokesman for the East German Government. He was conducting a press conference on the evening of the 9th of November 1989.
He was talking about things in general when someone came in and handed him a slip of paper and said you are supposed to announce this. He read it and he said the Government of the German
Democratic Republic has decided that everyone who wants a visa will be able to get a visa to allow them to travel to the West provided they get an approval. Well, he didn't quite say it
right and somebody in the audience hearing that thought that's an announcement that free travel is going to take lace. Someone asked him, when does this start? He said well it doesn't say
but I guess now. That statement was interpreted in the public differently than intended. They had all this pent up emotion, saying things have got to get better, demanding the opportunity
for freedom. That was interpreted by the public as an announcement that the Wall was open. There was such a tremendous outpouring of enthusiasm on the western side as brothers and sisters, countrymen on the West went to greet their fellow citizens coming from the East. They invited them into their homes, they would say come on let's go get a drink. They would do all kinds of things to show that warm humanity that you might expect. It was a wonderful experience. During the course of the evening the East German Government announced that only those people who have approved visas will be able to cross into the West after 8 O'clock the next morning. My wife and I were at the Heinrich Heine Crossing point at 8 O'clock the next morning greeting citizens as they came into West Berlin. At 8 O'clock we saw no change in the way the guards were acting. People were coming through with apparently little control. So we asked the guards, a Government announcement stated that only those who have an approved visa can come through after 8 O'clock, is that correct? He said visa or no visa makes no difference. Everybody comes through, the Wall is down, its finished. So the guards had heard the announcement, they had heard the rule but they were refusing to enforce it. That was very interesting. Dr. Galloway: You are listening to WTIX, I'm Dr. Pat Galloway and my guest is Major General Raymond Haddock, he was Commander of the Berlin Forces, he has also had other commands; John Demuse, former UPI newsman; and B. J. Austin, WTIX reporter is with us. So we're going to be back in just a moment. Dr. Galloway: O.K. we're back. I'm Dr. Pat Galloway, your listening to WTIX. General Haddock its great to have you here. One of the things that's happening in Europe and happened under your command had to do with the Pershing II missiles. You were in charge of the missiles that were the target of large demonstrations, is that correct? MG Haddock: Yes, that was one of my former commands, that was in the period 1984 to 1987. That was the period in which the intermediate nuclear forces controversy was so heated. There were anti-nuclear forces in this country, there were anti-nuclear forces in many countries but these forces were demonstrating against western actions in response to Soviet actions. In 1979 a decision was made in NATO that put the Soviets on notice. That decision said to the Soviets, you cannot continue to deploy those SS20 missiles (that was a 3 warhead missile with a 2500 mile range that was being put into Eastern Europe which in essence, threatened all of Europe) without NATO taking a counteraction. The Europeans were so concerned about it they said we must stop the Soviets. So the Soviets were put on notice either stop deployment of the SS20 or we will take action to counter it The West waited 4 years. NATO waited from 1979 to 1983 for the Soviets to stop deploying their missiles. They believed they would intimidate the West. Near the end of 1983 a decision was made to go ahead and bring the Pershing missiles into Europe. Well, I had the opportunity to execute that NATO order. We did that deployment in the face of tremendous opposition. Concerned citizens were demonstrating against us, but were not demonstrating against the other side. it was a very unfair kind of reaction. When we talked to the demonstrators and asked, why do you demonstrate against us, why do you demonstrate against our actions, why don't you demonstrate against the other side? They said, we can't demonstrate against the other side because they aren't here. So we'll demonstrate against you because we oppose nuclear weapons. Ms. Austin: Well, you know, we never heard that part of it in our news reports over here. We only heard you know, big bad U. S. Pershings. We never heard any demonstrators say well we would demonstrate against the Soviets if they were here but we can't so were pointing the finger at the U.S. Ms. Austin: How did it feel to be protecting people, you were there protecting people, no doubt an invitation from the people's government and yet such large numbers, and I don't know how large relatively speaking, but large numbers of them said don't protect USA. How did you deal with this whole challenge of significant numbers of citizens? Were you working here beyond the idea of orders, of course? You know, how did you deal with that as a person living' among them? MG Haddock: Well, it was a very challenging time. If you can imagine American soldiers who are sent from the United States to Germany to be a
part of that operation and so they are there under my command. I told our soldiers that we are doing something to promote democracy and Protect freedom and then our soldiers asked, but
why are all these people demonstrating against us? Why are they blockading my vehicle? There was a lot of individual trauma associated with that situation. The soldiers at times had very
great difficulty. It was face-to-face confrontation, it was just not masses of people someplace out on the street. It was a soldier performing his job who was confronted by a
demonstrator, who many times was very aggressive and very abrasive in talking with him. It took a tremendous amount of discipline on the part of the soldier to say I'm going to do what's
right and I believe what I'm doing is right. The leadership had a real challenge to make sure that the soldiers understood the larger picture of what we were about. MG Haddock: I think one thing that we Americans need keep in mind is that the Soviet military was a very capable military force. It was and is a capable military force. It is splintered in terms of leadership because Of the changes that have taken place in what was the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is now broken into several Republics, so that creates some real challenges as to whose orders do you follow. I can tell you that I, during the time that I was in Berlin, got acquainted with many of the Soviet generals. They are very capable people. They are dedicated to their nation. There were times, when I wondered that if things got traumatic enough whether they might use military force to take over the Government. I never really felt they would' In my talking with the Soviet Generals during that period of' time they would tell me, we have no history of coups. They said look back in our history. We have always been loyal and followed the will of the people. We have not demonstrated that we want to become the government-, and So I never really felt that the military would try to take over the government. One reason they would tell -me on the side, they would say, look things are so screwed up do you think we want to take responsibility for that mess? Ms. Austin: Gee, it sounds like our Congress. (Laughter) Did you speak to the generals with whom you were acquainted as the wall was falling, after it fell, when the surge of people came through and things just kind of took on a life of their own, and what were they feeling? MG Haddock: There was some real trauma on the part of the Soviet military at that time. The Soviet 4-star general in charge of the Western Group of Forces was a man by the name of Boris Snetkoff. On the morning after the Wall began to crumble, he sent a message to me through the Soviet Military Liaison Officer which said, "What are you doing to insure the situation doesn't get out of control?" He was concerned that this riotous, undisciplined conduct might become violent. I thought about that a little bit and I told the Liaison Officer provide this answer to General Snetkoff. Tell him that we are in close contact and coordination with the elected government of the people. He carried that message back to General Snetkoff. I didn't hear anything more from him that day. But the next morning received the same message, what are you doing to ensure the situation doesn't get out of control. I thought he wasn't totally satisfied with my answer yesterday, so I referred the question to my immediate four star Commander, who was in Heidelberg. I told him I have the same question from General Snetkoff again for the second day. I told him the answer I gave him yesterday. My boss said I would like you to take that same answer, write it on a 4-star note, sign my name and have it hand delivered. So we did that. I took a General Officer piece of stationery with 4 stars on it and I signed my superior officer's name and sent it. I received nothing more from General Snetkoff on the issue. The fact was that we were in close contact and coordination with the elected representatives of the people and the fact was that it didn't get out of control. Dr. Galloway: They exert the control, the elected representatives have the control, is that the message that you were making clear? East Europeans there now are trying to become more democratic, more capitalistic. Germany certainly is becoming more unified. What does all this mean to us, are they going to spend less money on arms? There's even talk that we might even spend less money on arms. But what does it mean? What's going on over there? What direction are they headed in? I would like your comments on them. MG Haddock: What we've seen is that the world began to dramatically change. You could go back and put some kind of milestones in this history. I look back to the great INF missile debate, the Pershing II missile against the SS20. To me that was really a milestone in the changes that are taking place now. The Soviets believed that the West didn't have the political will to bring that system in to Europe, in the face of-the opposition by so many people. However, after we met with and talked with people and tried to persuade people over time that we were doing the right thing, we did, in fact, win the support of the majority of the people. So we went from hundreds of thousands of-demonstrators down to no demonstrators in essence. We had won the support of the people which was essential in this international equation. The Soviet Union had always believed that they would be-able to eject the system by popular opposition. Because in democratic societies sooner or later, you have to follow the will of the people. However, they didn't count on our ability to get out and win support of the people. But when we had won, what I call the battle in the streets, the Soviet's decided to change their tactics. In my view and in the view of another individual I'll tell you about in just a second, this was a fundamental policy shift on the part of the Soviet Union. When the demonstrators went to zero, the Soviets went to the bargaining table and very shortly thereafter we had a treaty which was signed by Presidents Gorbachev and Reagan. Now lets go back to the fundamental Soviet policy shift. German Chancellor Helmet Kohl, in February of 1990, was meeting with President Gorbachev to discuss unification of Germany. After they had finished their discussion they were just casually talking with one another, as two individuals. The conversation got around to the Pershing II missile issue and Gorbachev told Chancellor Kohl, "Mr. Chancellor, I've got to tell you, that a very important factor that caused the Soviet Union to change its Policies towards the West, was the successful fielding of the Pershing II missile system." Now if you accept that, and you must because Gorbachev is a credible witness who was in charge of policy in the Soviet Union. If you accept that Gorbachev statement then you have an explanation for this fundamental policy shift. If you ask, why is it that the Berlin Wall came down? Well it is clear that it wouldn't have come down if the Soviets had decided to take action against it. We would have to say it was because of a change in Soviet policy towards the West. - And then you could ask, why is it that Eastern Europe is now free and democratic and why is it that the Soviet Union is breaking apart or has broken apart? It traces back to that fundamental Policy shift that took place when Gorbachev decided to go to the bargaining table and to sign a treaty to get rid of the Pershing II missile system. So that is a very, very important milestone in why things are as they are today in Europe. Dr. Galloway: We won. MG Haddock: Well, you would have to say that we won the cold war. What a dramatic achievement for the American people. Dr. Galloway: Really! Ms. Austin: In such dramatic instances too such as the airlift and the famous Kennedy visit when he said, I am a Berliner. Dr. Galloway: But more than that, it was patience. Patience and diligence and discipline on our part through all that adversity. You talk about your men and women standing up to all these demonstrators that really takes courage and patience. MG Haddock: And tremendous discipline. Dr. Galloway: General Haddock, you have had many commands and I'm looking at you, at the ribbons that you have, where have you served, what military organizations and locations. MG Haddock: Well, I served in Vietnam, I served in Korea, I served 4 times in Germany, I served in Washington, D.C. twice and I'm there now, I served in Virginia twice, I've been in Washington State, I've lived in Texas, I've been in Oklahoma and Missouri and Kansas, so I have served throughout the United States. Now that my career is, getting on in years, I have 3 children, all of whom are in uniform all serving as Captains in the United States Army. All Graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and my daughter decided she wanted to extend the line a little further so she married one of her classmates. So I have 3 Captains who are my children and I have a son-in-law who is a Captain. Ms. Austin: Well, gee, did she meet him at West Point and wasn't that pretty difficult to date? Dr. Galloway: I don't know if that's totally new from what things my father tells me. Ms. Austin: Oh yeah. MG Haddock: I was in Berlin in September of 1991, just almost on the anniversary of the unification of Germany and unification of Berlin. I was impressed by the fact that the Wall is almost not visible anymore. They have preserved some few sections of it as monuments to this tragic period in their history but, other than that, the Wall has disappeared so that barrier is gone. Then as you go into the East, instead of the empty streets you used to find, now the streets are flooded with people and the shops are filled with the kind of wares that you would find in the West. People are now congregating wherever they want to; they feel free to get together. When I go into the back streets, I see little shops that are now owned by individuals which are now making money. The economy is flourishing. I think Berlin is growing together very rapidly. The Germans are very industrious people and they are very anxious to get on with raising the standard of living in the former Eastern portion of their country. I think within a very few years you will not be able to notice the difference between the two parts of the city. What will persist for a longer period is that hurt inside on the part of those people who were behind that Wall for all those years. Those who say, "I missed a very important part of my life because freedom was denied me." You know, as the Wall was opening, I spent many hours and days on the Wall greeting people as they came through because I wanted to live it, I wanted to experience it, wanted to feel that emotion as people were coming into the West for the first time. So many times they would come through, they would see me standing there in uniform, they came up and grabbed my band with both of their hands and would say, "Thank you for being here, thank the United States of America for being here. Because if it wasn't for you this wouldn't have happened." What a testimonial. What a testimonial to the American people, and I would just like to say that the American people deserve a tremendous amount of credit for what has taken place already in the development of freedom in that part of the world. Dr. Galloway: Just looking at you, you experienced a lot of emotion when that happened. I mean that was a daily affair that you had to be on an emotional high for several days during that period of time. MG Haddock: The emotional high continues even today. Every time I think about that period that was such a potent part of my life where there
was so much human drama associated with it. It is easy to get emotional. Every time I start thinking about that, I think about the gentleman walking down the street of Under the Linden in
East Berlin who came up and handed me an East German flag that had the hammer and sickle cut out of it. He handed it to me and said, "Thank you United States, thank you. I want to give
you this flag and say thank you for what you've done." That same theme was repeated literally hundreds of times under so many different circumstances. Dr. Galloway: This is WTIX and we're listening to an interesting gentleman who's had quite an extensive career in the military, Major General Raymond Haddock. And in this last segment I want to touch on things that we've missed Anything that I've learned up to this point that really sticks with me, and when we talk about success, and I guess we had success as a country and we had success as individuals, when we demonstrated discipline and patience and perseverance over a 45 year period of history under a great deal of adversity in times when we probably could have just walked off and said, " Hey, there's no use staying involved in a situation like this." It makes me feel proud to be a citizen of this country. MG Haddock: When you think about that, Dr. Galloway, you think about phasing down our military, a Soviet military, that was about 4 ½ million strong. We had a much smaller force on the Western side, but still several million men and women in the NATO countries. When you think about these two armies, armed with the most modern technology, the most destructive weapons imaginable to include nuclear weapons. And when you think that the war was over, the war that was a cold war, was over without a military fight. There was no physical combat involved, can you imagine putting two huge armies on the battlefield of that size and having the referee blow the whistle and say I declare that we have a winner now. While the winner was declared, it was not by the referee blowing the whistle, but by the forces at work, the forces of democracy and freedom. As people in the East looked through those cracks in the Wall, they saw there was a better way of life. Some of those cracks in the Wall were Radio Free Europe. Some of it was radio in the American sector of Berlin, some of it was television broadcasts which, if the East Germans found out that an East German citizen was listening to those Western broadcasts, they would be imprisoned just for doing that. But people were looking through the cracks in the Wall through so many ways, radio, television, newspapers that were smuggled in, and a few of them that were allowed to travel to the West and they saw that there was a better way of life. It was those forces of human desire, of recognizing they were missing a tremendous part of what was available in life, that eventually brought down the Wall. Those forces changed the society and caused things to go in the current direction. Dr. Galloway: And that was the plan from the very beginning. Just start up unrest and let people know that there was a different way of life. And in the end it really worked. Mr. John Demuse: Oh yeah. Your talking about Radio Free Europe and other media brings it home to any journalist, of course, but its interesting because when you are a Journalist, and not to get into our basic personality type, but often times we look at things like Radio Free Europe from a free press perspective and say, oh yeah, that's our own PR company, our own propaganda wing, and we say we don't do this but we really do. Obviously you view items and forces like Radio Free Europe as not only fundamentally truthful but effective so you've seen things that had a long term impact on making this a possibility. MG Haddock: I think if I had to credit one force of our society that deserves more credit than any others I would say it's freedom of the press which caused the change that took place. You not only have to do the right things, you also have to communicate the right things. I look back at the days when we were bringing the Pershing II missile system into being, why did we go from 100,000 demonstrators to no demonstrators? It wasn't because I could personally talk to each and every individual. It was because I effectively dealt with the press. I found that by being open and objective with the press I was treated fairly. I didn't try to hide anything. When the press found that I was open and objective and was telling it like it was, I developed a credibility with the press. They in turn communicated the story of what we were about to the public. Over time, it was about a 3 ½ year period, but over time we won that ideological battle and the people supported what we were doing. And so I say thank you to the press. Now lets go back a few years later into Berlin and the times surrounding the fall of the Wall. Why did the Wall come down? Why were people dissatisfied? Its because of the media communicating the story of freedom and democracy more than any other thing. They were hearing Western reports over radio, television, smuggled newspapers, and they said our way of life is not good, there's a better way of life and we want it. Freedom of the press to me is so fundamental that it is one of the foundations on which we base our society and protect democracy and freedom of the individual. Dr. Galloway: I've often known, in my field, I've observed that people have to feel uncomfortable for them to demand a change. The only way you get people to feel uncomfortable is let there know that there is something a little bit different and let them know that they can do something different and things seem to work out. Ms. Austin: Yeah. Mr. John Demuse: There's a fascinating parallel in what the General was saying about the numbers. Because, if you recall, he talked about the truth reaching the demonstrators in Berlin and turned a few hundred into 500,000. And yet when the truth earlier reached the demonstrators against the missile it turned 100 or more than 100,000 into well 0, is what you said. it's kind of a democratic happening even in that the information turned crowds either up or down. Dr. Galloway: Yeah. MG Haddock: If you are in Government you want people to accept what you say. Some say you must accept it because I say it. Well, it doesn't work that way. In a democratic society you must persuade people to accept what you say. I would say I'm very happy that we have the kind of society that we have to persuade where one person can't dictate, but must convey his ideas and then the people can accept or reject those ideas. If they reject them long enough, they get another leader. Dr. Galloway: Professor Ambrose out at UNO has written several books on President Richard Nixon. This is what be says about
Nixon. He says Nixon said, "Its so because I said its so and his credibility program ran out over a period of time. Your openness General led to more credibility as time went on. You know
the fascinating thing about Europe right now is what I hear from a lot of my friends who say they would like to travel. Is it comfortable to travel in the Soviet Bloc countries now,
countries that we were formally barred from? Comfortable not in the sense of immunities, but I mean is there any fear that there's going to be an uprising and somebody is going to put you
in jail for no apparent reason? |
© 2009 Donna Haddock Cooper, All Rights Reserved
