Settlers LV
Yorkshire to Hillsgrove: John and Mary Bagshaw Jackson

by Michael G. Clarke
December 2008

For the last several years, Mike Clarke has contributed valuable insights, perspectives, records, photos and historical information to our web page. Now he has prepared this marvelous and revealing history of his Jackson ancestors. We are grateful to Mike for this effort. You can learn more about Mike and his previous creations at:

Souvenir of Hillsgrove
The Fuller Family: Now and Then

You can communicate with Mike at: Mike Clarke. So, let us now turn to his story.

 

John and Mary Jackson

 

Hillsgrove,

Sullivan County, Pennsylvania

 

 

 

“I blew a horn before you were born.”

- John Jackson -

 

Source: “The Jackson Family,”

From: “Souvenir of Hillsgrove,” (pub.1934),

By: Olive Grace (Salisbury) Jackson

 

 

 

 

 

Page 1 of 79

 

Hillsgrove from Jackson Mountain
The promontory also known locally as High Knob
Where the Jacksons settled in the 1850s
Source: An old uncanceled postcard purchased by Mike Clarke on eBay in June 2009
Likely dated to the 1920s or 1930s.

The following Obituary Notices are copied and pasted from Forum Threads at Ancestry.com regarding the deaths of John Jackson and wife Mary Jackson, and are direct copies of these notices as they each appeared in “The Sullivan Review,” Sullivan Co., Pennsylvania.

 

These last or final documentary remnants of their lives mark the beginning of what evolved into being my journey as an examination of the lives and the particulars of John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson; their immediate family and their contemporaries.

 

Note:  This examination details and documents this journey’s progress in the chronological order of its creation, and includes the false leads and dead-ends as well as the new discoveries, thoughts and epiphanies in the order they occurred.

 

 

 

==========================================================================

 

Board: Message Boards > Localities > North America > United States > States > Pennsylvania > Counties > Sullivan URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.pennsylvania.counties.sullivan/48 03.3/mb.ashx Subject: Mary Jackson     Author: Bill Brenchley Date: Sunday, June 05, 2005     Classification: queries      Surnames: Jackson

The Sullivan Review May 24, 1900 Mrs. John Jackson died at Hillsgrove last week Monday, aged 87 years, seven months and twenty-two days.  Funeral on Wednesday. She was married 67 years ago. Her husband survives her.

 

 

=============== End of this Ancestry.com Message Board Thread ===================

 

Page 2 of 79

 

Board: Message Boards > Localities > North America > United States > States > Pennsylvania > Counties > Sullivan   URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.pennsylvania.counties.sullivan/4803/mb.ashx   Subject: John Jackson     Author: Bill Brenchley     Date: Friday, June 03, 2005 Classification: obituary     Surnames: Jackson

The Sullivan Review September 24, 1903 John Jackson, an aged resident of this place, died at the home of his son, J. Lyman Jackson, on Friday last, aged 91 years. Mr. Jackson was born in Grisbrook, Yorkshire, England, emigrated to this country in 1848 and settled on a tract of land on the headwaters of Kettle creek, where he cleared a large farm. This farm, because of its isolated location, he exchanged for the one he occupied at the time of his death. He was a skilled musician and can be called the father of the Hillsgrove Cornet Band, having kept the organization together for twenty years. Of a genial nature, he was hailed by young and old as "Uncle Johnny Jackson" and his home previous to the death of his wife was the scene of many parties. He was the father of nine children and leaves three sons and one daughter. He had twenty-eight grandchildren and forty-two great grandchildren, nearly all residing in Sullivan county. The funeral Sunday from the church was largely attended, Rev. J.C. Bryan officiating.

 

=================== End of this Ancestry.com Message Board Thread ===================

 

 

Mary Jackson’s reported DOD:  May 14, 1900

Calendar for May 1900 (United States)

 

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat     1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31     Phases of the moon:  6:  14:  21:  28:

 

Page 3 of 79

 

John Jackson’s reported DOD:  September 18, 1903

Calendar for September 1903 (United States)

 

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat     1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30       Phases of the moon: 6:  14:  20:  28:

 

Calendars generated at www.timeanddate.com/calendar

 

 

Per her obituary notice, Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson died 14 May 1900.  Using the “8870 Formula” to calculate DOB (date of birth) when the DOD (date of death) and age at the time of death are known, Mary’s date of birth per her age as it appears in her obituary notice is calculated as:

 

DOD =  19000514

            Obit Age =  -_ 870722

              18129792

              -       8870

              18120922   =  Mary’s DOB, on or about:  22 Sept 1812

 

The problem with this result is that the calculated year of birth per Mary’s obituary notice, 1812, does not square with her recorded age on the Passenger Manifest of the ship “Tuscarora” in November of 1848, whereon her age was recorded as 31 yrs, and which points to her birth year being about 1817.  Thus there is this 5-year YOB (year of birth) discrepancy between the calculated YOB per her age as it was reported in her 1900 obituary, and the calculated YOB per her age as it appears on the 1848 Passenger Manifest.

 

The obituary also states that she was married “67 years ago,” which arithmetically makes 1833 the year of her marriage to John Jackson.  If it is assumed that there were no children born prior to their first child George, who was born in 1841, then Mary and John would have been married 8 years before the birth of George, who is listed as being 7 yrs of age in November of 1848 on the Passenger Manifest.

 

Frankly, I see that as highly unlikely to the point of being almost ridiculously impossible.  Either they had a child (or more) that was (or were) born and died between their theoretical year of marriage, 1833, and the year George was born, 1841, or there were about 7 childless years prior to George’s conception and subsequent birth.  The latter notion, though possible, is not one which I believe is realistically plausible.  George was the first of 5 documented children that John and Mary produced; each roughly 3-4 yrs apart.  None of them died prematurely, with the exception of Sarah who died in 1858 of illness at just under 13 years of age in Hillsgrove, Pennsylvania.

 

Page 4 of 79

 

Personally, as it pertains to their ages, I agree with the Passenger Manifest record.  The John Jackson family as it existed in 1848, and the persons accompanying them were duly recorded (at either Liverpool or Philadelphia) and there was no reason for them to lie about their ages.  The order of their appearance on the Passenger List or Manifest implies a certain and expected mixed and ragged “randomness,” though logical appearance on the list.  They are listed in this exact order and in this exact way on the Tuscarora’s November 8, 1848 Passenger Manifest:

 

John Jackson     32      m      England

Mary Jackson     31      f      England

 “     “            8mo  f      England

Ann Glossip      30      f      England

George Jackson    7      m      England

Sarah Jackson     3      f      England

Jane Glossip      9      f      England

John Glossip      2      m      England

 

The Tuscarora was a new ship, having only been launched the preceding February of that same year.  Indeed, these passengers arriving in Philadelphia in November of 1848, (there were 360 in all), were the first immigrants to be transported by this ship from Liverpool to Philadelphia.  No “Captain’s Sworn Statement” for this ship and its cargo exists, and only the Passenger Manifest or List survives.  The original Manifest is housed in the U.S. Nat’l Archives, and there is really no way of discerning at which port the Manifest was generated.  One might read something into the spelling of the word “Labourer” versus “Laborer” as the recorded occupation of some of the ship’s passengers, and conclude that this might point to an English (British) Recorder, but that might be something of a stretch, circa 1848.

(For more on the Tuscarora and the Passenger Manifest, see Pages 52 – 54).

 

The picture this order of appearance creates is one of this family group either boarding the ship or actually in the process of disembarking: Each passenger appearing in front of the Passenger List Recorder, and being duly recorded by him in the order they were assembled - meaning they didn’t hand-in a list of themselves.  Each in their turn appeared before the Recorder; were asked their name, age and country of birth, and were likely then asked to move on allowing the next passenger to appear before the Recorder.  John Jackson, being the head of the household or family, led the group and naturally Mary Jackson, his wife, followed and would be expected to be carrying their 8-month-old baby girl Martha who was duly recorded next on the list and right after her mother.  (Note:  8-month-old Martha was incorrectly listed as “ditto” under Mary’s name implying her name to be the same as her mother’s).

 

Ann Glossip, who appears to be traveling with them, is next on the list and she is in turn followed by the string of four children in seeming pairs: first 2 Jackson children, followed by 2 Glossip children.  In each pair, the eldest child precedes the younger sibling, and one can almost see 7 year old George holding the hand of his younger sister Sarah, and she followed by the eldest of the children, 9 year old Jane Glossip, preceding and holding the hand of, or more likely carrying, her 2 year old brother, John.  The two adults who are seemingly unencumbered with children, John Jackson and Ann Glossip, could be expected to be lugging or carrying what baggage they each had, while Mary Jackson with her infant daughter and the children were more or less leading or carrying one another along.  It’s a normal and natural string of family group members, and there was no lying about their ages - I am quite sure of that.  Incidentally, the spelling of the name “Glossip” is what I believe to be an error originating with the Passenger List Recorder, and should actually be Glossop, a Yorkshire surname.  In light of a seeming error like this, one might argue or conjecture that this may point back to an American passenger list recorder.

 

Page 5 of 79

 

In 1848, John and Mary Jackson were still relatively young and probably well aware of their respective ages.  52 years later, however, upon the death of Mary Jackson, a whole lot of water had by then gone over the dam, and who knows what information was transmitted in the interim years between these parents and their children.  As it pertains to Mary Jackson, there are two possible explanations for errors in her 1900 obituary, but these are theoretical ASSUMPTIONS, and must be regarded as such:

 

1. It could be argued that when Mary’s death was reported and the obituary written, presumably by an offspring, the hand-written draft: “She was married 67 years ago” might have appeared such that a handwritten “1” in an intended “61 yrs”, was perhaps misrepresented or misinterpreted as a “7” (67 yrs vs. 61 yrs) and was printed in “The Sullivan Review” as such.  If this is true, then 1839 would be the actual, calculated year of their marriage, and more in keeping with the year of George’s birth in 1841.  This sort of mistake is not necessarily an uncommon one, and perhaps historically so, but this would still not explain or resolve the disparity between her reported age in the obituary and her age as it appears on the Passenger Manifest...

 

2. It could be argued that upon death, Mary’s age in years was actually 81 and that there was an error by misinterpretation where the handwritten “1” in 81 was misrepresented as a “7” in the reported years of her life and printed as such in “The Sullivan Review.”  If we round-off her assumed-to-be actual age (81 yrs, 7 mos, 22 days) to the nearest whole year, 82, then the calculated year of her birth is 1818; a year much closer and more in keeping with the calculated year of her birth per her age on the Passenger Manifest, with a mere 1-year variance between the two: 1817, (per the Passenger List) vs.1818, (per the calculated result).

 

And then there’s John Jackson’s 1903 obituary notice, which stipulates perhaps the most surprising and baffling revelation of all: “He was the father of nine children and leaves three sons and one daughter.”

 

It is true that, upon his death in 1903, John did leave three sons and one daughter: George, Martha, Benjamin and John Lyman, (listed in the order of their births), not counting Sarah, who was born in 1845 and died in 1858; which brings the documented total to 5.  But who were the 4 other alleged and undocumented children, and when and where were they born?  Other than the children described above, no other children are recorded in any US Census record.  The 1860 Census record shows John Lyman recorded as 3 yrs old and his mother Mary being 43.  It follows, therefore, that Mary was about 40 yrs old when she gave birth to John Lyman, and she was looking at being 50 yrs old by the time John Lyman turned 10 yrs old.  I have to believe that from her perspective, the likelihood of any children being born by her after the birth of John Lyman was remote at best, to none, most likely.

 

This then suggests four scenarios that would or might explain 4 additional, alleged and undocumented children:

 

1. The 4 alleged and unaccounted-for children were all born and died at very young ages in between US Census dates. (unlikely)
2. These 4 alleged children were all born and died at very young ages prior to John and Mary’s emigration to the United States. (possible, but not necessarily likely)
3. Any combination of the above two scenarios (possible)
4. The assertion that he fathered 9 children is a mistake in reporting (possible, but not necessarily likely)

 

 

Page 6 of 79

 

Plato ranked belief as the lowest of our mental faculties, and so with that in mind, I will “theorize” that until there is some evidence to support the “9 children” assertion in John Jackson’s obituary, I will “postulate” a combination of all of the above scenarios.  To my knowledge, there is no actual or factual way of knowing who supplied John Jackson’s obituary information, or how that information was conveyed to “The Sullivan Review” for publication.  The 1900 US Census indicates John Jackson Sr. living in the home of his youngest son, John Lyman Jackson along with John Lyman’s second wife, Grace and their children.  One must assume from this that upon the death of the elder John Jackson, it was either his son John Lyman or daughter-in-law Grace (or both) who supplied the obituary information to the “Sullivan Review.”  Mistakes and inaccuracies of every order, kind and cause are hallmarks of the human experience, and with that I am compelled to leave this one up to the reader’s opinion, or some possible future discoveries that either certify or refute the “9 child” assertion.

 

It can be assumed that the quality and detail of the information that was handed-down was in all likelihood scanty, and/or misremembered; much the same as it is today in even the most modern and “data-conscious” families.  Another example of this sort of thing is John Jackson’s 1903 obituary wherein he is described as having been a former native of “Grisbrook” in Yorkshire.  As it happens, there is no “Grisbrook” in Yorkshire.  There is, however, a hamlet in S. Yorkshire called Greasbrough which, as it happens, was called “Gresbroc” in more ancient times.  And why wasn’t his exact age also reported in his obituary like Mary’s was 3 years prior?  I don’t believe that they really knew for sure what his exact age was.  Perhaps the surviving children of John and Mary Jackson didn’t know for sure because these things were either forgotten, were never told or were never precisely documented.

 

It seems to me that just as “Grisbrook” was someone’s pronounced estimate or Americanized version of John Jackson’s old and obscure Yorkshire place-name and probable birthplace memory, it is possible too that Mary’s age at death, was also estimation.  It is puzzling however, that her believed-to-be-exact-age was reported in “The Sullivan Review,” right down to the days, i.e., in Years-Months-Days format.  Information recorded like this on grave stones was a popular convention of the time, and the argument can be made that where that kind of information was requested, so was it supplied; estimated at worst or crudely calculated at best, but supplied nonetheless.

 

John and Mary Jackson are both buried in the Hillsgrove Cemetery, but neither burial is marked by a recognizable and original grave stone.  As well, the exact location of their resting place is also unknown.  Their daughter Sarah died at the age of just under 13 years.  At this writing, her grave stone exists and is still readable although deteriorating at a rate that will render it unreadable in the not too distant future.  Her stone is flanked by what appears to be empty spaces on both sides, but these seemingly “empty” spaces each contain small, single, unmarked stones, off-set and to the left and right of her.  One of these markers is a field stone, and the other is a chunk of sandstone.  I suspect that these “empty” locations are the likely burial locations of John and Mary Jackson, and quite possibly also, William Jackson (father of John Jackson) and William’s 2^nd wife, “Mary.”

 

About 3 yrs ago, William (Bill) Brenchley, also a descendant of John Lyman Jackson, but by John Lyman Jackson’s 2^nd marriage to Olive Grace Salisbury, thoughtfully installed two beautifully made, flat memorial grave stones in the Hillsgrove Cemetery: one for John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson, and one for John’s father, William and William’s 2nd wife, Mary (“Goslip”) Jackson.  Bill installed these two memorial stones side by side in what appeared to be empty spots next to and in line with the White family.  His logic, he told me, was that John Jackson had taken over the White farm at some point in the early 1850’s and so Bill reasoned that next to the Whites would be a logically suitable location for them.

 

Page 7 of 79

 

This was an arbitrary decision on Bill’s part, and one not based on real or specific knowledge as to the actual whereabouts of the grave sites of John and Mary Jackson and John’s father William Jackson and his wife respectively.

 

This past September of 2007 when my wife, Rosemarie, and I met with Bill at the Hillsgrove Cemetery, Bill told us he had been looking for Sarah Jackson’s stone for some time; that he had found one that he thought might be hers, but that after cleaning the stone discovered that it was not Sarah’s.  With that, Rosemarie wandered off and in a few minutes announced that she had found Sarah, as indeed she had.  Recent photos of Sarah Jackson’s grave stone are included with this collection.  The script on Sarah’s stone begins at the top with the recognizable: ”SARAH,” followed by a considerable amount of smaller, albeit rather eroded script, which includes the still somewhat vaguely discernable: “Daughter of John & Mary Jackson.”  Photos of Sarah’s stone as it relates to the flanking and seemingly “empty spaces” and within which stand the two small, unmarked stones on each side of her are included in this collection.  I digress here and must get back to John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson…

 

 

The Trail of Documented Ages

 

At this writing, we have 7 sources that document the age of John Jackson and 6 sources for Mary Jackson that occurred at the following intervals over the course of their long lives:

 

• The 1848 Tuscarora Passenger Manifest
• The 1850 US Federal Census
• The 1860 US Federal Census
• The 1870 US Federal Census
• The 1880 US Federal Census
• The 1900 US Federal Census (John Jackson only; Mary was deceased)
• The 1900 & 1903 “Sullivan Review” Obituary Notices, Mary and John respectively

 

 

Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson’s information:

 

                                    Recorded           Recorded           Recorded            Calculated

            Source           Source Date            DOB                   Age                    YOB               Variance

Passenger Manifest	November 8, 1848	n/a	31 yrs	1817	Zero yrs
US Census 1850	August 1, 1850	n/a	34	1816	+ 1
US Census 1860	July 12, 1860	n/a	43	1817	Zero
US Census 1870	July 7, 1870	n/a	55	1815	+ 2
US Census 1880	June 28, 1880	n/a	68	1812	+ 5
Obituary	May 14, 1900	n/a	87 yrs, 7 mos, 22 days	1812	+ 5

 

 

Page 8 of 79

 

John Jackson’s information:

 

                                     Recorded          Recorded            Recorded          Calculated

            Source           Source Date             DOB                  Age                    YOB               Variance

Passenger Manifest	November 8, 1848	n/a	32 yrs	1816	Zero yrs
US Census 1850	August 1, 1850	n/a	35	1815	+ 1
US Census 1860	July 12, 1860	n/a	45	1815	+ 1
US Census 1870	July 7, 1870	n/a	58	1812	+ 4
US Census 1880	June 28, 1880	n/a	68	1812	+ 4
US Census 1900	June -- 1900	08 Dec 1811	[88]	1811 / [1812]	+ 5 / [+4]
Obituary	September 18, 1903	n/a	91	1812	+ 4

 

Note: Date of Birth (DOB) was not recorded in any Census prior to the 1900 Census. Also, most of the 1890 US Census records were destroyed in a fire in the early 20^th century; included among which were those of Sullivan Co, PA.

 

It appears by these statistics that as they got older, they did indeed get “older,” or at least numerically so, with the result being that by 1880 they both wound-up being theoretically born in the year 1812; which denotes a 5-yr discrepancy or variance between the first and last sources for Mary, and a 4-yr variance for John.  In both cases, beginning in 1848 and as the years rolled on, the variance widened as opposed to narrowing.  In both cases, the most significant age variance or discrepancy began with the 1870 US Federal Census when it appears they began to lose count.  In John’s case, after 1870, the variance remained consistent with the remaining 3 source dates, with the exception of the 1900 Census when, per his recorded DOB, there is a 5-yr variance and per his recorded age there is a 4-yr variance.  Mary’s 2-yr variance in 1870 widened by an additional 3 yrs in the 1880 US Federal Census to the 5-yr discrepancy between her reported age in the 1880 Census and her calculated YOB per the 1848 Passenger Manifest.

 

Per the US Census of 1900, John Jackson was recorded as being 88; which as it pertains to him, was a smooth continuation of the “+ 4 YOB / Age error” which first becomes apparent in the 1870 Census.  The 1900 Census also indicates his YOB as 1811 and that his year of Immigration to the United States was 1850.  Since we have a copy of the actual November 1848 Passenger Manifest, we are in the blissful position to know with absolute certainty that John Jackson’s recorded year of immigration as it appears in the1900 Census (1850) is incorrect by 2 yrs.

 

A private source at Ancestry.com shows John Jackson with a DOB and POB of:  08 Dec 1815, Greasbrough, Yorkshire.  The person who posted this information evidently believed or reasoned as I do that Greasbrough is the most likely birthplace candidate, or has specific and verified knowledge of the Greasbrough location of John’s birth per official records and/or documentation of some trustworthy sort.  Assuming that specifically stated and posted DOB and POB information regarding John’s birth implies validity and a certainty of knowledge, as in: the possession of the actual and correct Birth Certificate or Birth Registration, then John’s actual age at death can be calculated.

Page 9 of 79

 

In John’s case, using the “8870 Formula” to calculate his age, and if we accept the assumed to be correct DOB for John Jackson is as it is posted at Ancestry.com, and given his known DOD per his obituary and also assuming a month to be comprised of 30 days, his age at death is calculated as follows:

 

Obituary DOD   =        19030918

Assumed DOB   =   -   18151208

                                         879710

                                 - _        8870

                                          870840   =   87 yrs, 9 mos, 10 days

 

This calculated though admittedly questionable result based on  the uncertainty of John’s DOB, is about 4 years less than John’s 91 year age as was stipulated in his obituary.

 

The Passenger Manifest was a long-forgotten relic of John and Mary’s past, and I am quite sure they didn’t even know of it’s existence beyond a possible and most assuredly dim memory of that chaotic, apprehensive, brief and certainly distant moment in time when they, each in their turn, stood before the Passenger List Recorder and when asked, reported their respective name, age, and country of birth, and were thus recorded on the Tuscarora’s Passenger Manifest…the Manifest being the source against which, in my opinion, all other sources must be weighed.  Definitive and undeniable records of birth in the form of Birth Certificates, British Census Records or a Marriage Certificate in Yorkshire, England for either John or Mary or both would be the only other possible sources that could dispute or even support what appears to be the Passenger Manifest’s reliability and authority in this matter.

 

Is any of this important?  I believe it is if one realizes and understands an historical human condition and so take a lesson from history:  The reality appears to be that it is not unlikely and indeed very possible that John and Mary Jackson were at least somewhat illiterate.  This is no denigration of their relative intelligence, but is instead, an assertion based on the pervasive reality of the times.  I am also quite certain that as they got older, their precise age was of little concern and of even less consequence so long as one was at least somewhat close to correct and if one could, on demand, indicate to the infrequent Census Taker one’s age (or approximate age) with some degree of seeming authority.

 

A Word of Caution…

 

Instances of what “appears” to be inaccuracies may not be necessarily so.  An example:  John Lyman Jackson’s grave stone in Hillsgrove stipulates a birth year of 1855 (no date provided) while per the 1860 Census he was recorded as 3 yrs old, mathematically making his YOB about 1857.  In the Census of 1870 he is recorded as 13 yrs of age, again suggesting 1857 as his YOB.

 

As it happens, “Date of Birth” was not recorded in any US Census prior to the Census of 1900.  Prior to 1900, only ages were recorded, and the instruction to the Enumerators was to record:  “... the specific age of each person at his or her last birth day previous to the 1st day of June…”  This means that if Lyman’s DOB was any date after June 1st  and before December 31st, his recorded age as of June 1^st of the current census year would imply or suggest he being as much as 1 year younger than he actually was.  If this is true as it pertains to Lyman, then this might suggest 1856 being his actual birth year, and the odds of that are good with the probability being something just under 50 / 50.  Without a record of Lyman’s actual DOB, we are left with the business of having to second-guess what records there are, while at the same time recognizing the uncertainty of what appears to be either true or false.

 

Page 10 of 79

 

By all accounts, close must have been good enough, and as well, it appears to have been all that the world demanded.  In the end, we must accept that we can not know all things and that the smoke screens and confusion that Time, Miscommunication, Inattention to Detail and Documentation, Human Error, Bureaucracy and even Illiteracy place in the way, are all disappointingly part of the human condition and our historic experience.  Without certified Birth Certificates for John and Mary Jackson, and because there aren’t even any original gravestones for them, determining their precise ages at death is impossible. Where we know with certainty what we know, we may consider ourselves blessed.

 

I am reminded of a “poem” which is actually no poem at all, but rather a series of sentences or phrases that former Sec. of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld uttered at a Pentagon Press Conference back in 2002 that have been satirically observed to be poetic but with which he was attempting to describe to the Press our problem with terrorists and terrorism.  Poetic or not, prophetic or not, it can’t be denied that these lines very aptly apply to the possession of knowledge in general, or the lack of it, as the case may be:

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns:
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

 

~ Secretary of Defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld ~

Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------  END ---------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------  New Information / Restart ---------------------------------------------

 

61 Pye Bank Road, Sheffield, Yorkshire
About 1901
Sarah Jackson, daughter of John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson, was born across the street from this building in 1845. The street scene is likely to not be greatly different although it was photographed 56 years later. Sheffield was a smoky, crowded, polluted and dismal Industrial Revolution city in the middle of the 19th century, perhaps explaining the desire of the Jacksons to leave for a new life in North America,
Photo by Mike Clarke
Source: An eBay auction in April 2009

20 January 2008

And now, the rest of the story...:

 

In a state of frustration as it pertains to this, the story of John and Mary Jackson, but most specifically regarding the significant dates of their lives, and probably because of it, I found myself surfing the net, and wound up at a British online forum based in Sheffield, England.  How I came upon this website, in Sheffield of all places, was purely by chance.  The only logic I can assign to this was my recently acquired knowledge that John and Mary Jackson originated in South Yorkshire and I had become aware that the city of Sheffield is as well in South Yorkshire and I had also recently discovered that not too far way from Sheffield is the hamlet of Greasbrough….

 

Page 11 of 79

 

….Some background first:

 

A couple weeks ago, via a free 14-day trial membership at Ancestry.com, I searched and found the scanned image of an 1841 UK Census record whereon a John Jackson and a Mary Jackson are listed along with several other people in what appears to be the same household; included among which is an older Bagshaw woman by the name of Sarah Bagshaw.  This census enumeration location or district was described as: 1841 Census, Parish of Sheffield, Strafforth and Tickhill (North Division) S. Yorkshire, HO 107 / 1329 / 2.

 

The persons listed in this 1841 UK Census record appeared in the following order as:

 

• Sarah Bagshaw, 50 yrs of age
• John Bagshaw, 15 yrs of age
• John Jackson, 25 yrs of age
• Mary Jackson, 20 yrs of age
• William Jowet (or Jewet), 20 yrs of age

 

Directly underneath this apparent household of persons is listed what appears to be another household of 5 more Jackson’s, but for obvious reasons, it is the household of persons listed above that were and are most interesting and in which I was and am most interested.

 

I remember noticing the age of the John Jackson in this list, and that this John Jackson’s recorded age in 1841, (25), squares perfectly with John Jackson’s recorded age on the Tuscarora’s Passenger Manifest, 7 years later in November of 1848, whereon John Jackson, whom I knew to be the correct John Jackson, is listed as being 32 yrs of age.  I noticed as well, however, that Mary Jackson’s recorded age “20” in 1841 does not square with Mary Jackson’s age 7 years later on the Tuscarora’s Passenger List, whereon Mary Jackson is recorded as being 31 yrs of age.  I was impressed with the coincidence that there would be these people who are so very close, as it pertains to their Census information, in the company of and likely living with an older Bagshaw woman, but which must unfortunately be discounted from further consideration by virtue of Mary’s recorded 1841 Census age:  “20 yrs.”

 

Nonetheless, I saved the image of this 1841 UK Census page for no other reason than what appeared to me to be the oddity and the improbable coincidence of it.  For me, this Mary Jackson’s recorded 1841 Census age closed the door on the possibility of she being The Mary Jackson of interest who appeared on the Tuscarora in 1848.  Incredibly coincidental as this find was, Mary’s age on the Census appeared to be a disqualification of these Jackson’s from further consideration.

 

A couple weeks later, I began what I wrote above, (Pages 1 through Page 10), and finished it two days ago, the morning of 18 January 2008.  That same afternoon is when, in a fit of pessimism and frustration, and despite the expectation of further disappointment, I stumbled upon or into the “Sheffield & District FHS Forum” site which I mentioned above, and posted my first somewhat plaintive appeal for any information regarding John Jackson and Mary Jackson.  Again, I had no actual or factual notion about Sheffield other than the 1841 Census record I stumbled upon earlier at Ancestry.com.

 

For the record, the entire response and exchange to my posted appeal is a cut-and-paste verbatim copy as follows:

 

Page 12 of 79

 

=======================================================================

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum  /  Surname Interests  /  Jackson

 

Posted by: mgc, January 18th, 2008, 10:20pm

Looking for any information on a John Jackson and a Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson in the greater Rotherham, Sheffield, Greasbrough, Whiston, Tickhill, Rawmarsh area(s).  These persons are ancestors that emigrated to the US in Nov of 1848 from somewhere in these Yorkshire areas.  They wound-up in what can only be described as a trackless wilderness and on the side of high mountain not too far from where I live.  Any info would be a help.  John Jackson's 1903 obit states he was a former resident of "Grisbrook," Yorkshire, which I believe to be an Americanized version of Greasbrough.  I'm thinking that although he may have been born there, he may also of have lived in or got married at, in, or around any of the above named locales.

Thank…….. Mike
Muncy Valley, Sullivan Co., Pennsylvania, USA

 

Posted by: Angela, January 18th, 2008, 11:20pm; Reply: 1

Hi Mike.

You state that he died in 1903, but can you please give us his year of birth...did he marry Mary BAGSHAW in the states or was he already married when they emigrated.

Kind Regards,
Angela

 

Posted by: Procat, January 19th, 2008, 3:52am; Reply: 2

Hi Mike,
Great photo.

Doug.

==========================================================================

I had posted the only photo of John Jackson - sitting in front of their cabin home which is included with this collection. – M. Clarke

========================================================================== 

Posted by: mgc, January 19th, 2008, 4:32pm; Reply: 3

I have a copy of the original Passenger Manifest for the American immigrant ship "Tuscarora", which I have to believe was generated upon the passengers disembarking at Philadelphia because it is stored in the US Nat'l Archive, and the copy I have was printed from the microfilm copy of the Manifest.  On it, John Jackson is listed as being 32 yrs old, his wife Mary is 31 yrs old, and they brought 3 children with them.  The oldest, George Jackson is listed as 7 yrs old, followed by Sarah Jackson, 3 yrs old, and an infant Martha at 8 months old.  Given John's reported age on the manifest in Nov of 1848, his birth year is 1816, while Mary's is 1817.  I also have image copies of the original US Federal Census records for 1850, 1860, 1870 and 1880.  It appears that as the years rolled on, their math got a bit quirky to the point that by the 1880 census, their reported ages translated into them both being born in 1812... a 4-year discrepancy per the calculated YOB on the Passenger Manifest and the 1880 US Census.

They were already married in Yorkshire, and I guess-timate their year of marriage to be about 1839 given that their oldest child, George, was born in 1841 (again per his age as listed on the Passenger Manifest).

Family legend or lore suggests that Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson was from a locale referred to as "Westgate" and that her family was against her marriage to John Jackson... the implied meaning being that she was basically marrying-down in status.

I noticed a  "Westgate" address for a certain Thomas (I believe that to be the first name) Bagshaw listed in the 1840 (or so) Rotherham Postal Directory, being a "Gent."... I take that to mean Gentleman of some status which squares with family legend in two ways:  First, a man of means and position, and the address: "Westgate."

Page 13 of 79

Believe me, if this is true, I can only tell you that his daughter did indeed break with family tradition when she married John Jackson.  Where they settled here in Pennsylvania was and remains to a great extent, nothing short of a primeval wilderness, with the exception that today there are at least a few good roads in the area.

Thanks for your interest and reply Angela ...
... Mike

Quoted from Angela Hi Mike. You state that he died in 1903, but can you please give us his year of birth...did he marry Mary BAGSHAW in the states or was he already married when they emigrated? Kind Regards Angela

 

Posted by: mgc, January 19th, 2008, 4:35pm; Reply: 4

Thanks Doug.  That is the only known photo of John 'Johnny' Jackson, and was probably taken circa 1880-85.  I know the exact location where this cabin/house stood, and I'm attaching a photo as the location appears today.  

Mike

Posted by: Procat, January 19th, 2008, 11:48pm; Reply: 5

Hi Mike,
Hasn't changed much has it - except for the house being gone and the colour.
I have had a look in the Marriage Indexes for Sheffield Cathedral for your time frame and I could not locate them.

I think I have them in the 1841 census:

Civil Parish:                   Sheffield
Hundred:                       Strafforth and Tickhill (North Division)
County/Island:               Yorkshire
Country:                        England
Registration district:       Sheffield
Sub-registration district:  Brightside
HO107; Piece 1329; Book: 2; Civil Parish: Sheffield; County: Yorkshire; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 9; Page: 11

Address: Andrew? Andren? Street

Sarah Bagshaw, 50, Born County
John Bagshaw, 15, Cutler, Born County
John Jackson, 25, Striker, Born County (age is interesting. looks to have been 26 then changed to 25)
Mary Jackson, 20, Born County
William Trivet, 20, Cutler,  Born County
Louisa Drabbles, 15, Born County

On the same page are:

Matthew Jackson, 35, Farmer, Born County
Ann Jackson, 35, Born County
John Jackson, 13, Born County
Mary Ann Jackson, 10, Born County
Amelia Jackson, 1, Born County
Harriet Tye, 15, F.S., Born County (this is a female Servant)
Thomas Ratcliff, 20 M.S., Born County

 

Page 14 of 79

There are also:

Charles Jackson, 35, Grinder, Not born county
Mary Jackson, 35, Born County
Mary Ann Jackson, 11, Born County
Catherine Jackson, 2, Born County
Charles Oates, 15, Ap, Born County (this is an apprentice)

 

Posted by: HughW, January 20th, 2008, 12:29am; Reply: 6

Definitely Andrew Street.
Odd to think of a farmer living there. On the 1851 OS map the northern end of Andrew Street butts up against the railway but on the other side there are still fields. And in 1841 the railway wasn't there  :)

A burial from Sheffield Parish Church (now the Cathedral)
JACKSON Charles 29 Nov 1840 inf Sheffield, Andrew St  John(cutler)
[name/date of burial/age/address/relationship or description]

and this may be Mary's father:

Burial at Sheffield Parish Church
BAGSHAW Charles 24 Sep 1840, 47, Sheffield, Andrew St, Cutler

Hugh

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20th, 2008, 1:36am; Reply: 7

Thanks heaps for this information!  This just might be them.  One problem though might be Mary Jackson's recorded 1841 UK Census age where she is listed as 20 yrs.  That would make her only 27 in 1848, while her age as listed on the Nov 1848 Passenger Manifest is 31.  Other than that, the age of John Jackson on the UK 1841 Census squares perfectly with the reported age of John Jackson on 1848 Passenger Manifest.

One question as it pertains to what I assume is John Jackson's recorded occupation: What in the world is a "Striker"?

One more photo attachment.  This is a scan of a 1910 postcard of what is (or was) locally known as "Jackson Mtn" but which is now called "High Knob".  It was on this mountain that John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson found themselves in 1850 dealing with wild animals, and even wilder weather.

Thanks so much for you help. Greatly Appreciated ....
.... Mike

Posted by: mgc, January 20th, 2008, 1:56am; Reply: 8

Great Thanks to you as well Hugh.  I know what you mean about the way things change over time: railroads where fields once were, and the like.  Happily, around here, things don't change very much and haven't over the past 100 or more years; with the exception that, if anything, the population has declined from its peak in 1900 at around 12,000 inhabitants in the whole county to its current pop of 6,500, + or -  few.  Most everybody is happy to boast that there is only one traffic light in this county (Sullivan), which is an incredible state-wide, and even nation-wide exception.

Mike

Posted by: HughW, January 20th, 2008, 1:57am; Reply: 9

hello Mike,

You'll notice that all the ages in that household are multiples of 5. this is because, in the 1841 census, the enumerator was instructed to round ages of all those over 15 down to the nearest 5. So Mary's stated age of 20 is absolutely consistent with the age stated on the manifest.

Page 15 of 79

A striker was the junior partner in the two-man process of forging larger blades such as those for table knives. The forger was in charge, deciding when the steel blade was at the correct heat and positioning it on an anvil for his striker to ‘strike’ it with a heavy two-handed hammer.

Hugh

 

Posted by: Procat, January 20^th, 2008, 2:26am; Reply: 10

Hi Mike,

These sorts of images go someway to help you imagine what it must have been like for those leaving the ‘civilization’ of the UK and heading into the great unknown.

As Hugh points out the ages are correct. Even without that I would  be pretty happy it is the right family – correct names for the Jacksons and the fact they are in the same house as the Bagshaws – a fairly unusual name by the way, only 1,622 in the 1841 census and only 355 in Yorkshire.

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20^th, 2008, 12:20pm; Reply: 11

Well… that explains it! The “rounding-off thing”… Very Interesting.  One wonders why they would have complicated the census process in that mathematical way.  Then again though, bureaucracies everywhere are famous for that kind of thing… a sort of time-honored tradition meant to confuse and confound the rest of us, ad infinitum.

Is the 1841 instruction to the enumerator to “round-off those over 15 down to the nearest 5”, (‘down’ being the most critical aspect of the instruction formula especially as it affects Mary’s recorded census age in 1841), documented somewhere or is that a general knowledge thing?

That piece of information is the bees knees, to be sure, and I am most thankful for having posted my queries here at this forum, and positively Most Grateful and Thankful for your collective knowledge and responses. Incredible! My day is made.

I’m going to add these threads to my “Genealogical Archive Of Sorts” here, and include credit to you all for your help and knowledge.

I am, as you would likely say: “Gob-smacked” ….

…. Mike

 

Posted by: Procat, January 20^th, 2008, 12:33pm; Reply: 12

Hi Mike,

it is documented at the start of each booklet.

See this link (amongst others)

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kayhin/eni1841.html

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20^th, 2008, 12:52pm; Reply: 13

We wonder about that too… all the time.  They came to a wild place, in almost every imaginable way:  The dirt, the rocks, timber rattlesnakes, black bears, the bugs, the heat in summer, the extreme cold in winter, no facilities of any kind (medical or otherwise), very few and wide spread other human beings as a support group, all of whom were struggling with their own sets of life-sustaining challenges and problems.  They had to literally drag a log behind the wagon like an anchor when they came down off the mountain to prevent the wagon from over-running the horse or horses.  The first Jackson primitive log home (or shelter) up on High Knob had a nailed-up blanket for a door pending the advent of forged metal hinges if or when one was lucky enough to get them.  And of course, all of this was preceded by 5-6 weeks at sea, (Oct-Nov 1848), and in steerage no less!

Page 16 of 79

I find it incredible that they actually found themselves attractive enough, given all of the above miseries, to even reproduce, which, miraculously, they did.  John and Mary Jackson went on to have two more US-born sons.  They lost one of their 3 Yorkshire-born children, Sarah, in 1858 at the age of just under 13 due to measles, and she is buried in a small old cemetery in the valley below.  Photo attached.  But land was cheap... 50 acres and more for a pittance was the norm, and they certainly had unconstrained freedoms and absolutely no limitations, other than the sky, and I suppose that was the lure that inspired them.

Mike

[quote=239]Hi Mike,
These sorts of images go someway to help you imagine what it must have been like for those leaving the 'civilization' of the UK and heading into the great unknown.

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20th, 2008, 1:42pm; Reply: 14

Like 'Manna from Heaven,' this and you are!  One, gigantic and lucky break visiting this site.

I know its getting redundant, but Thanks again!
... Mike

Quoted from Procat Hi Mike, it is documented at the start of each booklet. See this link (amongst others) http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~kayhin/eni1841.html

 

Posted by: HughW, January 20th, 2008, 3:04pm; Reply: 15

Marriage at Sheffield Parish Church (St Peter's, now the Cathedral)
volume F page 63 entry  188 (volume covers Oct 1835 to Jul 1836)
[Archives volume reference for microfiche: PR(M)138/130]
John JACKSON    Mary BAGSHAW

This is an index so for the exact date and the names of witnesses you would need, in some way, to access the original at Sheffield Archives. And given the possible connection with places outside of Sheffield (Greasebrook, Westgate) it would be interesting to know if they were both 'of this parish'.

Hugh

ps does the one traffic light always turn out to be on red when you get to it  :D

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20th, 2008, 4:08pm; Reply: 16

lol... It's red about 50% of the time.  / ;  )  I am located about 15 miles south of the light, on the same roadway, and when we can't get onto the roadway from our driveway because the traffic is coming south and goes by in a bunch of 5 or 6, as it sometimes does, we joke saying the light must have changed up there…… Mike

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20th, 2008, 4:19pm; Reply: 17

Is this true.... that this is >the< actual record of a John Jackson marrying a Mary Bagshaw, and that these are the actual Vol, Page, and Entry numbers that record that event?  If so, how does one obtain a copy ?!  What is the procedure?  Who does one contact?  Amazing!  Where do you find this stuff!

Mike

Page 17 of 79

Quoted from HughW Marriage at Sheffield Parish Church (St Peter’s, now the Cathedral) volume F page 63 entry  188 (volume covers Oct 1835 to Jul 1836) [Archives volume reference for microfiche: PR(M)138/130] John JACKSON    Mary BAGSHAW This is an index so for the exact date and the names of witnesses you would need, in some way, to access the original at Sheffield Archives. And given the possible connection with places outside of Sheffield (Greasebrook, Westgate) it would be interesting to know if they were both ‘of this parish’. Hugh ps does the one traffic light always turn out to be on red when you get to it  :D

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20^th, 2008, 4:35pm; Reply: 18

Incidentally, and just for the record, this is a tin-type photo of the youngest of John and Mary Jackson’s children: John Lyman Jackson, born in the US up on High Knob.  He is my gg-grandfather.  They all looked pretty much like this at that time….. Mike

 

Posted by: Angela, January 20^th, 2008, 5:30pm; Reply: 19

Hi Mike.

I’ll take a look at the original marriage certificate sometime this week at the archives….if the original is good enough to copy I’ll send you a scan.

Quoted Text Where do you find this stuff!

Hugh, Doug, myself and others on this list have transcriptions relating to Sheffield and other areas. That’s what I will be doing at the archives this week transcribing Handsworth parish records to put on disc. See http://www.sheffieldfhs.org.uk/Pub_con/Postal_pub.htm

Kind Regards
Angela

 

Posted by: mgc, January 20^th, 2008, 5:41pm; Reply: 20

Hi Angela….,

That would be about as good and wonderful a thing as I could ever imagine!  My fingers are crossed that the original is scan-able.

Just Terrific, Thanks Angela….... Mike

 

==========================================================================

Pause in this exchange…

==========================================================================

 

It appears from this dialog that the 1841 UK Census image file which I downloaded from Ancestry.com several weeks ago, and which I gave the filename: “1841 UK Census John and Mary Jackson Strafforth and Tickhill (North Division) Sheffield, S. Yorkshire,” is the correct Census page image with the correct John and Mary Jackson recorded on it, and that these persons are extremely likely to extremely certain to be the John and Mary Jackson pair who ultimately settled near Hillsgrove, Pennsylvania, 8 yrs later in 1849 on the mountain locally and familiarly known as Jackson Mountain, or as it is more often referred to today: High Knob.

 

Page 18 of 79

 

Here are 6 points, facts, circumstantial and otherwise, that back-up this assertion:

 

• John Jackson’s recorded 1841 UK Census age at 25 squares perfectly with his age 7 years later on the Passenger Manifest, however, it should be noted that it appears that the enumerator initially wrote “26” and then changed the “6” to a “5” making it “25.”  This implies a possible birth year of 1815 for John Jackson, and that per the instructions to the enumerators of the 1841 UK Census, John’s recorded age was or may have been rounded-down to 25 from 26.

 

• Mary Jackson’s recorded 1841 UK Census age does not square with her recorded 7 yrs later on the Passenger Manifest, but this problem is perfectly explained and thus resolved with the knowledge that:  “…in the 1841 census, the enumerator was instructed to round ages of all those over 15 down to the nearest 5.”   In 1841, Mary was over 20 yrs of age and less than 25, so her age was rounded-down to the nearest multiple of 5 and was therefore recorded as “20.”  We can assume her actual age was 24, and that squares perfectly with her recorded age of 31 yrs on the Passenger Manifest 7 years later in 1848.  John, on the other hand, was either a perfect multiple of 5 at 25 yrs of age and his age was not mathematically manipulated, or he may have been 26 but no more, and thus his Census age would have been rounded-down and recorded as 25.

 

• By 1841, John Jackson and Mary Bagshaw were married and hopefully the scanned image of their Marriage Certificate as promised by “Angela,” (above), will materialize and supply the Place and Date unknowns.  How incredible it is… how unlikely and odd that they should be living in a household headed by an elder “Bagshaw” woman.  Of all the last names there are, these two: John and Mary Jackson, are living with an elder woman whose last name is Bagshaw…. “Bagshaw” the surname of family lore and legend, passed down through what is becoming “the ages,” and which is, by the tradition of familial memory, the believed-to-be or known-to-be maiden-name of Mary!

 

In all likelihood, the elder Bagshaw woman is the mother of Mary, and so John and Mary Jackson were living in the household of Mary’s mother, Sarah Bagshaw, who’s 1841 Census age was recorded as “50.”  How fortunate is it, that the name “Bagshaw” was not forgotten; that somehow it survived the ravages of time and human memory.  This surname was, in this case, the key to linking, indeed discovering, and at the same time knowing what I recognized to be a pair of young and presumably married Jackson’s, only one year or so apart in age, living with and linked to the name Bagshaw.  Without the foreknowledge of the name Bagshaw, John and Mary Jackson as they appear on the 1841 UK Census living in a Bagshaw household would have been a mystery couple, made invisible by an association with an undocumented, unremembered and unknown Bagshaw surname, and would therefore have been very suspect at best to highly doubtful at worst, as being the “right Jackson’s.”  But as it is, with this knowledge of the name Bagshaw, the association of these people in that household is not unusual, unexpected or improbable at all.  In fact, it comes as no real surprise and is rather a confirmation!

 

• The next point:  The mathematics of probability, where as “Doug” indicated above:  “…As Hugh points out, the ages are correct. Even without that I would be pretty happy it is the right family - correct names for the Jacksons and the fact they are in the same house as the Bagshaws - a fairly unusual name by the way, only 1,622 in the 1841 census and only 355 in Yorkshire.”

 

 

Page 19 of 79

 

This makes the Jackson–Bagshaw association even more mathematically less probable and thus more significant in a population of people with many and varied surnames.  This therefore lends great weight to the certainty of these people as being the correct people.  And there they are, in black and white, living together and recorded as such, all under the same roof.  The somewhat unusual name: “Bagshaw” lends mathematical weight to handed-down family lore from the “associated-with-Jackson” standpoint.

 

• Circumstantial evidence as it pertains to the name “Sarah” as with the elder Bagshaw woman: Sarah Bagshaw.  John and Mary Jackson had three Yorkshire-born children, the first of which was male, George.  The second child born to them was female, and she was given the name Sarah.  I find this circumstantially significant: Mary, it can be argued, named her first-born female child after her mother, “Sarah” Bagshaw.  This kind of thing, although circumstantial for sure, is as we know, a customary child-naming convention that happens frequently and therefore adds its own additional circumstantial weight on the plus side, in my opinion.

 

• And lastly, the locale:  The 1841 UK Census record, Sheffield, Strafforth, Tickhill, on one hand and the “Grisbrook” mentioned in John Jackson’s 1903 obit and which I have to believe is actually the Americanized interpretation or version of Greasbrough, and which was likely where John Jackson indicated his birthplace to be when asked where he came from, are both South Yorkshire place names that are not more than 10-15 miles apart.  Again, the Marriage Certificate will or may add an additional place name to the record.

 

For my part, I am prepared to accept and believe that, as it pertains to the 1841 UK Census record, it is in fact, The Record that lists and records The Correct Set of Jackson’s: John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson.  The evidence that supports this far outweighs any argument against this apparent and most probable certainty.  Indeed, there is no argument against what I believe is a certainty other than perhaps, a weak and presumed argument of “mere coincidence.”  Again, the advent of the Marriage Certificate will or may be the clincher that further supports this.  As of this moment, two days have expired since “Angela” at the Sheffield forum indicated she would search out and then scan the Certificate. Yesterday, I left her a Private Message via the forum.  What follows is my quoted note to her and to which she responded in kind:

 

==========================================================================

Re-start Sheffield & District FHS Forum Exchange

==========================================================================

Title:                      Re: Re Jackson Marriage Certificate

From:                     Angela

Date Received:      Today, 9:51am (21 Jan 2008)

 

Hello again Angela,
Don't want to be a bother, but it occurred to me that you might need some way of actually contacting me or "alerting" me regarding the Jackson Marriage Certificate.  I don't know how this works, or what the contact procedure is you have there, and I may be (and probably am) anticipating a problem where there is none, but I just want to make sure there's no problem contacting me.

 

Thanks so much again Angela,… I’ve been basically walking on air with these so easily resolved epiphanies and discoveries, all Thanks to You and Hugh and Doug…

 

Mike

 

Page 20 of 79

 

 

Hi Mike.

I will contact you thru email once I have the certificate or the details.
Happy to be of assistance.

Angela

 

==========================================================================

My thoughts: (Tue., 22 Jan 2008) “…or the details.”  …Comments like that make me nervous.

==========================================================================

My thoughts: (Wed., 23 Jan 2008)  “Tap, tap, tap…” still waiting.  No sign of the Marriage Certificate.

==========================================================================

 

Thur., 24 Jan 2008:

 

Well, it happened.  This morning the scanned images of the actual John Jackson and Mary Bagshaw Marriage Registry Certificate arrived, attached to an email with the following text supplied by “Angela” and my reply:

 

==========================================================================

 

Date:        Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:54:19 -0000 [05:54:19 AM EST]

From:       Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk>

To:            clarkemg@epix.net

Subject:    Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

Part(s):     Jackson003.jpg           [image/jpeg]   1,681 KB              

    Jackson marr002.jpg  [image/jpeg]   2,051 KB 

 

Hi Mike.
Attached is the marriage from the Sheffield parish church register. The church is SS Peter & Paul.

I had to darken the print for the writing to show up. I have printed it as a full page with the other 2 entries and again as a single marriage.  In case you have problems reading it, it reads:

John JACKSON of this parish, Bachelor and Mary BAGSHAW of this parish, Spinster. Were married in this church by Banns with consent of…….............this thirteenth Day of December in the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty five.  By me Edwd Goodwin Assistant Minister.

John Jackson made his mark “X”
Mary Bagshaw made her mark “X”

The witnesses were W. Wheatley who made his mark “X” and Joseph Hudson. Joseph Hudson, being a clerk of the church who witnessed numerous marriages around this time.

Kind Regards,

Angela Treweek
Search Secretary Sheffield & District FHS
www.sheffieldfhs.org.uk

 

==========================================================================

 

 

Page 21 of 79

 

Date:      Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:23:07 -0500 [08:23:07 AM EST]

From:    clarkemg@epix.net

To:          Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk>

Subject:  Re: Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

 

Angela...... How can I ever thank you enough.
Every now and then I find myself commenting that, in strange ways, unseen forces lead me to remarkable and wonderful people like you.  I know it sounds weird, but there ya go, and once again I am going to have to explain this that way.

My wish was to establish some definitive evidence that placed these two forebears in S. Yorkshire, since I knew that to be the general locale of their British origin.  My wish has come true and to you, Angela, I am so Very Thankful.

In what has to be Record Time, so many unknowns are now known, and with unbelievable ease and completely unexpected aid and involvement by yourself as well as Doug and Hugh, and on that score, I just can’t thank all of you enough.

When I registered at the site, (and that was only but a few days ago), I did so with the notion that this was just another “shot in the dark” and that the likely result would be, perhaps, another dead-end at worst, or idle and uninformed comment at best.  What actually resulted was, in my view, nothing short of a Miracle.  I had more or less and intuitively, given-up on any real hope of further discovery, and certainly never in my wildest imagination did I expect this!

Angela, you are indeed an “Angel” and proof-positive that there really are exceptional and good people on this planet.

Mike Clarke

 

=======================================================================

 

Date:       Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:47:33 -0000 [08:47:33 AM EST]

From:       Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk> 

To:           clarkemg@epix.net

Subject:   Re: Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

 

Dear Mike
Thank you for your comments...we do I try our best to help people like yourself who do not have access to the records.  So whenever you have any questions, feel free to post on our message board... I can’t guarantee that we will have all the answers though.

 

I love researching and also helping others in their research, so any knowledge or
experience that I can pass on...then you can be sure I will. Hugh is very knowledgeable on everything that is Sheffield. Doug is actually in Australia but he is also a seasoned researcher and will do his best to help or at least point people in the right direction.

Kind Regards
Angela Treweek
www.sheffieldfhs.org.uk

 

==========================================================================

Date:        Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:14:24 -0500 [09:14:24 AM EST]

From:        clarkemg@epix.net

To:            Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk>

Subject:    Re: Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

 

Page 22 of 79

Angela,

One question...: I take it that describing or defining the bride as "Spinster" was a convention of the time.  Here, and probably there in the UK too, "spinster" has somewhat negative connotations implying: a woman of at least somewhat advanced years who never married, and who likely will never marry.

And one more question...: Regarding the "X's"... Can we assume they are in all likelihood the actual handwritten notations of John and Mary themselves, which one can take to mean that they were likely illiterate?  (probably sounds like a stupid question).

Mike

 

==========================================================================

Date:        Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:20:51 -0000 [10:20:51 AM EST]

From:        Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk> 

To:            clarkemg@epix.net

Subject:    Re: Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

 

Hi Mike
 
The "X" on the certificate would have been in their hand, and the vicar filled in the names.

Spinster was used for any single woman, whatever age. The only alternative allowed was widow or widower, if either party had been married before.  It is only after the Civil Partnership Act of 2004 that the term spinster has been replaced by "single". This allows couples of the same sex to marry.

We use spinster in the same context as you do......or the alternative is old maid.
This family history lark certainly gets complicated...LOL

Hope this helps.
Angela
www.sheffieldfhs.org.uk

 

==========================================================================

 

Date:                Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:15:50 -0500 [12:15:50 PM EST]

From:                clarkemg@epix.net

To:                   Angela Treweek <searches@sheffieldfhs.org.uk>

Subject:             Re: Jackson/Bagshaw marriage

Part(s):             Download All Attachments (in .zip file)

 

Hi Angela...  Thank you again.  And Yes, I agree, this family lark thing certainly does get complicated, and at the same time, utterly absorbing.

 

I took a look at the Church of St Peter and St Paul in Sheffield.... It's a cathedral!  And to think this church (attached) is the church they wound-up being buried behind... Mary (d.1900) and John (d.1903), Hillsgrove, Sullivan Co., Pennsylvania.**

All the Best.... Mike

==========================================================================

** (I had attached a year 2002 photo of the Union Church in Hillsgrove)

==========================================================================

End of this email exchange

==========================================================================

 

Page 23 of 79

 

This, I have to believe, pretty much winds-up this portion of the odyssey. The bottom line:

 

• John Jackson and Mary Bagshaw were married in Sheffield, England: 13 Dec 1835.  On that date, John was about 19 or 20 yrs of age and his birth year was about 1815-1816, and Mary was about 18 yrs of age and her birth year was about 1817.

 

• They were married 6 yrs before their oldest son George was born in 1841.  It is not known if, prior to George, (between the years 1836 and 1840), there were any other pregnancies that may have failed or children born that may have died, as the case may be.

 

• Mary died first: 14 May 1900, and three years later John died: 18 Sept 1903.  Mary was about 83 yrs old when she died.  John was about 88 yrs old when he died.

 

• Regarding the length of John and Mary Jackson’s marriage, and knowing the date of its beginning to be 13 Dec 1835 and if it is agreed that its end is marked by the death of Mary on 14 May 1900, the term of this marriage can be calculated two ways as follows:

 

Method 1:

 

          Yr        Mos   Days

Mary’s DOD  =      1 9 0 0      0 5     1 4

                                    DOM  =    - 1 8 3 5     1 2     1 3

 

In the Months column, 12 (DOM) can not be subtracted from 05 (DOD), so 12 months are borrowed from the Yr 1900 and added to the Mos column of Mary’s DOD:

 

 

Mary’s DOD  =        1 8 9 9     1 7    1 4

                                    DOM  =     - 1 8 3 5     1 2    1 3        

                                                               6 4     0 5    0 1    =    Married:  64 yrs, 5 mos, 1 day

 

Method 2:

 

Using the “8870 Formula” the calculated result is as follows:

 

 Mary’s DOD  =        1 9 0 0 0 5 1 4

                                     DOM  =     - 1 8 3 5 1 2 1 3

                                                                6 4 9 3 0 1

                                                      -              8 8 7 0

                                                                6 4 0 4 3 1    =   Married:  64 yrs, 4 mos, 31 days                                       

These differently calculated results are essentially identical.  In all, and as of the date of Mary’s death in 1900, John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson were married a total of exactly: 

 

64 yrs, 5 mos, 1 day   … or …   64 yrs, 4 mos, 31 days.

 

==========================================================================

Page 24 of 79

A Note for the Record:

 

My knowledge of the name “Bagshaw” comes by way of word of mouth through the generations.  It is one of those “Known Knowns.”  It’s a name that we simply know we know.  It was not written down or documented in any known source or sources that I was or am aware of other than the recently received 1835 Sheffield Church of St Peter and St Paul, Marriage Registry Record.

 

When I first met Bill Brenchley, (also a Jackson family descendant), at the Hillsgrove Cemetery this past August, 2007, he and I discussed our Jackson family forebears and lore.  We shared, compared and exchanged what we knew and all the while we used the name “Bagshaw” when we discussed Mary, and in retrospect, we did so without ever thinking twice about it.  It was only recently; since beginning this study of John and Mary Jackson that it occurred to me, (and I was dumbfounded to realize), that it was not because this name “Bagshaw” is documented anywhere that I knew Mary’s maiden name.

 

I vaguely remember her last name, Bagshaw, being mentioned by my father, and he must have acquired it from his Jackson-born mother, Florence Mildred (Jackson) Clark, (who knew much and spoke often of Jackson family lore and history but never documented anything).  The only documentary source we had to go on was Olive Grace (Salisbury) Jackson’s account in the 1934 publication: “Souvenir of Hillsgrove,” but even her account makes no mention of the Bagshaw maiden surname of Mary Jackson.

 

It seems that once knowledge like this is implanted in one’s brain early on in one’s life, one tends to conscientiously repeat it while at the same time often dismissing or absent-mindedly ignoring or forgetting the source of that information.  I sent an email to Bill Brenchley regarding this question of the source of our knowledge of Mary’s maiden name:

 

==========================================================================

Date:    Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:03:52 -0500 [01/21/2008 11:03:52 AM EST]

From:    clarkemg@epix.net

To:        “Brenchley, Bill” <wab1@stny.rr.com>

Subject:   Bagshaw

 

Hi Bill... Do you know where the name Bagshaw first appears?  Where does this name come from?  Is it documented somewhere?  How do we know as we do that Mary’s maiden name was Bagshaw?

Mike

==========================================================================

 

Shortly after I sent the above email, Bill called and we discussed this “problem” over the phone and he, like I, was just as surprised with this revelation, since he too could not recall the source of this knowledge other than the name “Bagshaw” has always been, to him, the given, understood and expressed maiden name of Mary.  Bill has had a lifelong interest in Jackson family history but it wasn’t until I addressed this subject with him that he gave this matter any serious thought.

 

So, there we were, standing in the Hillsgrove Cemetery in August of 2007:  two divergent Jackson family descendants:  Bill at about 78 yrs of age, and myself at about 57 yrs of age; each of us descendents of John Lyman Jackson, (Bill, by Lyman’s 2^nd marriage to Olive Grace Salisbury, and I by Lyman’s 1^st marriage to Julia Ann Fuller).  Neither of us knew of each other prior to the summer of 2007, and then only by the great good fortune of the computer, the internet and the Sullivan County GenWeb website - the source that alerted Bill to my existence and my email address.

 

Page 25 of 79

 

Bill and I used the name Bagshaw when discussing Mary as if nothing was unusual about it; never giving it a second thought and neither of us consciously recognizing that this name, Bagshaw, which for me proved to be so fundamentally critical to this study; most especially to these most recent discoveries, comes separately to us both by some miracle of the ages:  A miracle which, on this date, has somehow successfully perpetuated itself for over 172 years!

 

This miracle, as I call it, is the miracle of a blind but dedicated verbal tradition.  Its survival through the generations is incredible when one considers that it is probably the one piece of knowledge that is positively unchanged and uncorrupted despite 172 yrs of “human handling.” It is a communicated name-heritage repeated over and over these very many years; handed down from one generation to the next, and what is more, along two wholly disconnected and divergent family lines and I think that this truly is Miraculous.

 

 

==================================   End   ==================================

 

New Information - Restart

 

I no sooner put the period on the end of the last sentence above, when new information has once again surfaced.  This new information pertains to the parents and grandparents of Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson.

 

But before I begin with that, I’m inserting for the record a portion of the following email response which I received today, 25 Jan 2008, from Bill Brenchley.  In it, he is replying to my email to him wherein I announced these most recent John Jackson and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson 1841 UK Census and Marriage Registry Certificate findings:

 

==========================================================================

Date:    Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:24:06 -0500 [10:24:06 AM EST]

From:    Bill Brenchley <wab1@stny.rr.com>

To:        clarkemg@epix.net

Subject:  John and Mary Jackson

 

Glad you could find that.  We discussed the years they were born for a year or two, Everything we did - the census the obits every thing we did was off about 3 years so I guess we used the obit’s not sure anymore.
The markers we put there I thought no one would ever put a marker there unless I did it, The years may be off a couple but I’m not going to worry about it.  Keep up the good work Mike,

 

Bill

==========================================================================

 

Note: By “we” Bill is referring to himself and others unknown before me, and by “markers” Bill is referring to the two flat Jackson memorial gravestones in the Hillsgrove Cemetery which he contracted to be made and which he subsequently placed there several years prior to this writing.

 

Page 26 of 79

 

Next, I sent a similar email announcing the good fortune of my most recent findings to a woman in Canada whom I had met online months ago.  I “met” her through a contact I had made in the UK in the Yorkshire town of Rotherham, (a couple miles south of Greasbrough), probably sometime in late August to early September of 2007.

 

The contact in Rotherham is another woman who is an employee of the City Council who had replied to an email I sent local government there inquiring about sources for research or information acquisition, and it was she who referred me to her friend in Canada.

 

The woman’s name in Canada is Shirley Parent, she is a former Yorkshire resident, is evidently very interested in all things Yorkshire, especially genealogy matters.  Shirley involved herself as best she could at the time in discovering any additional information on John and Mary Jackson, but those early leads proved to be false leads.  Upon my discovery and acquisition of the Tuscarora painting images this past November 2007, (see Page 53), I contacted Shirley again with the good news, but that was the extent of our communication until just yesterday when I sent her this additional news of my now having images of the John Jackson and Mary Bagshaw Marriage Registry Certificate as well as the 1841 UK Census page whereon they are listed, and in the household of a certain Sarah Bagshaw.

 

The following begins with her email reply:

 

==========================================================================

 

Date:    Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:55:33 -0500 [01/25/2008 04:55:33 PM EST]

From:    sparent <sparent@rogers.com>

To:        Mike Clarke <clarkemg@epix.net>

Subject:            More

 

Hi Mike, I couldn't resist in trying to find out who Sarah Bagshaw was.  Tickhill is not far from Sheffield or my home town of Rotherham.  Found this on Family Search:

Charles Bagshaw marr. 1814 @ St. Peter's, Sheffield to a Sarah Bingham

A Chas. Bagshaw was bp. 1793 @ St. Peter's - Edward Bagshaw & Martha

A Sarah Bingham was bp. 1791 @ St. Peter's - Martin Bingham & Mary

Shirley

 

==========================================================================

 

Date:    Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:52:26 -0500 [01/25/2008 05:52:26 PM EST]

From:    clarkemg@epix.net

To:        sparent <sparent@rogers.com>

Subject:            Re: More

 

Incredible!  I'll bet Charles Bagshaw and Sarah (Bingham) Bagshaw are the parents of Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson!... Amazing!  I was told by a researcher at a Sheffield genealogy site that Bagshaw is a fairly unusual name and that in all, there were only 1,622 in the entire 1841 UK Census, and only 355 in Yorkshire.

Attached is the image of the Census page with Sarah Bagshaw listed on it.  I wonder what happened to Charles between 1814 and 1841. This just reminded me that this genealogist/researcher at Sheffield dropped the following tidbit on me at about the same time, but it didn't register with me then (here it is, copied and pasted):

 

 

Page 27 of 79

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burial at Sheffield Parish Church
BAGSHAW Charles 24 Sep 1840 47 Sheffield, Andrew St, cutler
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(DOD 1840) - (DOB 1793) = 47 ... And that's him!  Just unbelievable.

 

So, it appears that Charles Bagshaw died the year before the 1841 UK Census, and that explains why only Sarah Bagshaw appears on it as the head of the household.  Unbelievable!!

Thanks so very much Shirley.... Mike

==========================================================================

Pause in this email exchange…

==========================================================================

 

This exchange locks it!  Whereas the elder woman, Sarah Bagshaw, was a prior Unknown she is now a Known, and there are now other Knowns as well.  Per another 1841 UK Census search engine, which I found online and which also provided the Piece, Folio and E.D. Numbers for the 1841 UK Census page, this was the household of Sarah Bagshaw in June of 1841:

 

Bagshaw, Sarah of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 50 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

Bagshaw, John of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 15 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

Jackson, John of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 25 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

Jackson, Mary of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 20 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

Irwet, William of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 20 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

Drabble, Louisa of Andrew St, Sheffield Brightside. Aged 15 years.
    (Piece #1329/2, folio 9b, enumeration district 4.)

 

 

• Sarah (Bingham) Bagshaw was recorded as being 50 yrs of age in the 1841 UK Census, which squares perfectly with the birth year that Shirley Parent supplied: 1791.  (1841 – 1791 = 50).

 

• Sarah Bingham (Bagshaw) was born in 1791, and her parents were recorded as Martin Bingham and a woman named Mary.

 

• Sarah Bingham married Charles Bagshaw in 1814 and Mary Bagshaw (Jackson) was born to them in 1817.

 

 

Page 28 of 79

 

• Mary Bagshaw married John Jackson 13 Dec 1835 (she was 18 and John was 19 or 20), and they were living in the household of Sarah Bagshaw in 1841.

 

• Charles Bagshaw was born in 1793, and his parents were recorded as Edward Bagshaw and a woman named Martha.

 

• Charles Bagshaw’s recorded age (47 yrs) at the time of his death (1840) squares perfectly with his recorded birth year: 1793, (1840 – 1793 = 47), and because Charles Bagshaw died in 1840, he would not and does not appear in 1841 UK Census.

 

Some known Unknowns, Some former unknown Unknowns, a former known Unknown, and one heretofore known Known:

 

The Binghams and The Bagshaws

Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England

 

 

Martin & Mary BINGHAM                                         Edward & Martha BAGSHAW

b. Unknown        b. Unknown                                          b. Unknown      b. Unknown

d. Unknown        d. Unknown                                          d. Unknown      d. Unknown

 

 

              Sarah BINGHAM (Bagshaw)                                           Charles BAGSHAW

b. 1791, Sheffield                                                                    b. 1793, Sheffield

d. Unknown                                                                           d. 1840, Sheffield

 

 

Married 1814, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 

 

 

 

Mary BAGSHAW (Jackson)

b. about 1817, Sheffield, ENG

d. 14 May 1900, Hillsgrove, Pa, USA

 

 

==========================================================================

Restart this email exchange

==========================================================================

Date:    Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:53:44 -0500 [01/25/2008 07:53:44 PM EST]

From:    sparent <sparent@rogers.com>

To:        Mike Clarke <clarkemg@epix.net>

Subject: Brightside

 

Hi Mike, I found your query on the Sheffield FHS site and saw the 1841 Census.  You mentioned Tickhill to me, now I see why…

 

Page 29 of 79

Sarah Bagshaw and family were living in Brightside, an area in Sheffield, which was growing quite quickly by 1841 and was becoming overcrowded and polluted.  Sheffield was in the old District of Tickhill.  Brightside & Sheffield are the areas you should be focusing on.  It’s possible that the Bagshaws came from the County of

Derbyshire which is “cheek by jowl” to Sheffield.   Many were moving into the area because of the cutler trade…… Shirley

==========================================================================

 

Date:    Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:00:31 -0500 [01/26/2008 11:00:31 AM EST]

From:    clarkemg@epix.net

To:        sparent <sparent@rogers.com>

Subject:            Re: Info.

 

Hi Shirley.... The US Federal Census of 1850 shows Wm Jackson (John's father) as being 58 yrs old, making his birth year 1792.  It also states his country of birth as England.

Wm's wife, Martha, (presumably his 2nd wife and the widow he married in Yorkshire whose former last name was Glossop, presumed) is listed in the same 1850 US Census along with him as being 60 yrs of age, making her birth year 1790.

Since we know Wm's son John was 32 yrs old on the 1848 Passenger Manifest, and since that age squares perfectly with the 1841 UK Census 7 yrs earlier, John's birth year must have been 1816.

Both Wm and John Jackson (father and son) immigrated to the US, both lived in basically the same northern Pennsylvania locale for the rest of their lives and both are buried in the same cemetery in the locale of their US homes.  It appears the Wm and John Jackson you found are both buried in Yorkshire and Sheffield to be exact.

For these reasons the Wm and John Jackson you located are not the same persons, but as always, I really really do appreciate your incredible interest and help Shirley.  Thanks ever so much... The info you came up with yesterday literally clinched the Bagshaw side of things by connecting and melding so perfectly with the tidbit that the researcher at Sheffield FHS had supplied, and which I didn't really pick-up on at the time.  That was just plain old miraculous!

I'm still fixated on the "Grisbrook" / Greasbrough thing, and I have to believe that John Jackson, son of Wm, must have been born there... It's just such a glaring and unusual statement of seeming certain fact in his obituary.

I don't really understand how things work or worked there in England, what with parishes and the like, but it appears that Greasbrough was a parish unto itself for quite some time prior to being basically absorbed by Rotherham.  I believe there is really only one old church there in Greasbrough, and I wonder if that might be the source of records, or that maybe those records have been included now with Rotherham's.

 

Mike

=================================================================================

I decided to post another query regarding William Jackson and son John Jackson’s Grisbrook / Greasbrough birthplace problem at the Sheffield genealogy forum thinking that another shot in the dark can’t hurt:

==========================================================================

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum:

URL:  http://www.sheffieldfhs2.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?b-dm3/m-1201378482/

 

Posted: Yesterday, 8:14pm, Sheffield FHS Forum, 26 Jan 2008

 

The father of John Jackson (the John Jackson per my previous Post and Replies) was named William Jackson.  My best guess is that his birth year is 1792, based on his recorded age in the 1850 US Fed Census.  His birth location is unknown other than I am quite sure S. Yorkshire.

Page 30 of 79

Evidently, (according to family lore) John Jackson was William's oldest son, and perhaps oldest offspring by his (William's) first marriage, spouse unknown.  William went on to marry a widow by the name of Martha, and her believed-to-be last name was Glossop.  She had a son Jack by her previous marriage.

Both William and his second wife Martha immigrated to the US and it is believed they did this in the year 1842, or so.  They may have missed the 1841 UK Census if they left for the US earlier than 1842.

 

John married and lived in and around Sheffield prior to him and his wife immigrating to the US in 1848 as was established as a result of my earlier posts.
The 1903 US obituary of William's son, John Jackson, states in part: "Mr. Jackson was born in Grisbrook, Yorkshire, England..." and I take "Grisbrook" to be the Americanized version of Greasbrough.

 

Is there any way of determining:

1.) Is this true, that Greasbrough is the correct birthplace for John Jackson
2.) Who John Jackson's biological mother was (Wm's first marriage)

Thanks .... Mike, Pennsylvania, USA

 

==========================================================================

To date, there has been no response to this most recent query.

==========================================================================

 

John and Mary Jackson gave up just about everything they owned when they left England for America in 1848;  and turned their backs forever on a life and a place in England that they knew but which was, by all accounts, dirty, overcrowded, polluted, class-based, fraught with limitations, and fundamentally futureless – right out of the pages Dickens.

 

In Liverpool, and probably late in September, 1848, they boarded the 3-masted American sailing ship, “Tuscarora,” crowded with 360 immigrants like themselves; most of them in steerage, as were John and Mary Jackson and family, and for about six storm-tossed weeks endured and survived that late-in-the-year-voyage to a new world and an entirely new life.

 

With receipt of that most welcome email from Angela in Sheffield, to which the Marriage Registry image files were electronically attached, and upon opening and seeing these images for the first time and seeing each of their marks “X” in their own hand next to their names, I was struck by the knowledge that I was looking at the images of a document that is over 172 yrs old and that no other child or descendant of John and Mary Jackson has ever seen this before…That indeed, the last persons related to John and Mary to have seen these before me were, in fact, John and Mary themselves.  For me, it was one of those moments when time literally stopped.

. 

I did not change the filenames of the two images of the Marriage Registry Certificate that Angela assigned to them.  I did however make additional copies of those files and named the copies differently.  The original files are filenames are:

 

Jackson003.jpg  Cropped version, partial registry page, center section of 3-entry page, showing only that portion of the page (the middle) pertaining to John and Mary, file size: 1,681 KB 

 

Jackson marr002.jpg  The full registry page image version as it exists in its original form with three marital parties recorded on the same registry page, file size: 2,051 KB 

 

Page 31 of 79

 

Upon arrival on the shores of the United States at Philadelphia, John and Mary Jackson didn’t satisfy themselves with any lifestyle options that resembled or even remotely repeated what they had left behind, but instead moved on to an entirely new beginning; in radically different environs.  The hardships that John and Mary Jackson encountered in America, and the wilderness of Sullivan County specifically, likely paled in comparison to their former dismal prospects back in England.

 

William and son John Jackson had a vision, and what they sought is what they found: The welcome and open arms of the natural world and a pioneering lifestyle in Sullivan County, Pennsylvania.  It was a world that gave them little, but it appears that it was a world to which they cheerfully gave their all.  John and Mary lived long and very colorful lives together, due in large measure to what I believe to be the probable fact that they themselves were colorful and fundamentally happy people.

 

As for John Jackson specifically, we can speculate or assume that his birthplace was Greasbrough, Yorkshire; that he later sought and found employment in Sheffield, and we know that he met and married Mary Bagshaw there.  As indicated earlier, “Grisbrook” is uniquely and glaringly included in his obituary, and one has to believe or at least rightly assume that ”Grisbrook” is most likely Greasbrough, the place of his birth and the place-name he must have oft-repeated when asked where he was born. “Mr. Jackson was born in Grisbrook, Yorkshire, England…”  This notion didn’t just materialize somehow out of thin air.  At this writing, it is not known who John’s biological mother was, or who his supposed or alleged siblings were, and we may never know.  “As we know, there are known unknowns; the things we know we don’t know.”

 

Regarding this document… I signed its beginning on Page 1 and signed-off on Page 10, which was what I believed at the time to be The End.  This was followed by the Restart on the same Page with the advent of new information.  I anticipated concluding this work on Page 25 and again signed-off as I did back on Page 10 only to Restart again for the same reason.  By method, I am leaving in the Stops and Restarts to show and as well to protect the integrity of this process of discovery and to preserve the chronology of this document’s creation and evolution.

 

With this documentation, and as it pertains to the name “Bagshaw”:  That very old, very fragile, and heretofore tenuous chain of information-sharing and memory transference on which this name depended for 172 years, is finally broken, and it is my wish now that Mary Jackson’s maiden name is accorded this sorely needed “Now or Never Documentation for Posterity” that both she and it have for so long been wanting.  No longer will the vague knowledge of Mary’s maiden name be dependent on those two activities that are so dependably undependable: word of mouth and human memory.

 

 

 

 

==========================================================================

End

==========================================================================

 

Page 32 of 79

 

New Information – Restart

31 May 2008

 

On the 30^th of May, 2008, I found what is probably the only searchable source that documents and defines the birth of a John Jackson, specifically in Greasbrough, Yorkshire, England in the year 1815, to a father William.  I found this information at FamilySearch.org, which is a genealogy site created and operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka the LDS):

 

 

John Jackson Birth/Christening per FamilySearch.org

 

Regarding John Jackson’s birth, the following known search criteria were used:

 

• Name:  John Jackson
• Event:  Birth/Christening
• Year:   1816   Range:  (+ or –  2 yrs)
• Father: William Jackson
• Place:   England

 

This search resulted in a total of exactly 100 possible hits, of which # 46 (below) was the only hit that described a John Jackson being born specifically in Greasbrough; to a father who’s name was William Jackson, and within the 4-year (1816, + or – 2yr) search criteria time frame: 1814 – 1818, and most conveniently not more than one year prior to 1816:

 

46. JOHN JACKSON – International Genealogical Index
    Gender: Male Christening: 08 JAN 1815 Greasbrough, Yorkshire, England

Parents: William Jackson and Martha

 

For the sake of space and clarity, and because #46 and only #46 specified “Greasbrough” as the place of birth of this particular John Jackson, and to a father whose name is William no less, all of the 99 other results were eliminated from consideration, and hence not listed here.

 

Given that this John Jackson was born in Greasbrough, (the “Grisbrook” as I believe this town or hamlet to have been erroneously reported in his 1903 obituary), and assuming this is the correct John Jackson; we now know or may assume his mother’s name to have been “Martha.”

 

Assuming this is the correct John Jackson, and if we also assume that his (this) christening was conducted within a short time after birth, and if we use the Christening date as the approximate date of birth, John Jackson’s approximate age at death can be calculated as follows:

 

                                                 19030918   =  Date of Death

                                         -      18150108   =  Date Christened

                                                     880810   =  John’s approx Age at Death  =  88 yrs, 8 mos, 10 days

 

In this case and with this result, John Jackson’s actual age was about 3 yrs younger than his age as it was reported in his 1903 obituary.

 

Page 33 of 79

 

William Jackson Birth/Christening per FamilySearch.org

 

For this search, there was one very remotely possible hit:

 

WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 12 AUG 1792 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Parents: John Jackson and Ruth

 

The father of this particular William Jackson (John) is circumstantially interesting, however, with no heretofore known father, no conclusion, remote or otherwise, can be correctly determined, since there were so many returned William Jackson births and christenings over a wide range of places; at least several of which where places in Yorkshire.  William Jackson’s date and place of birth must, for the time being, continue to be Known Unknowns.

 

 

William Jackson Marriages to “Martha” (1st wife of Wm & birth mother of John Jackson) per FamilySearch.org

 

Regarding William Jackson’s marriage to a presumed or suspected “Martha,” the birth mother of John Jackson, I used the following known, or assumed to be known, search criteria at FamilySearch.org:

 

• Name: William Jackson
• Spouse: Martha
• Event: Marriage
• Year: 1812   Range: + or – 2 yrs (given the assumed knowledge that John was the oldest or first child born to William Jackson as it was so recorded in the “Souvenir of Hillsgrove,” 1934)
• Place: England

 

Search Results:

 

1. William JACKSON - Ancestral File
Gender: M Marriage: 24 Dec 1814 Illogan, Cornwall, England

 

2. William Jackson - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 18 NOV 1810 Skipton In Craven, Yorkshire, England

Bride: Martha Gill

 

3. WM. JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 13 SEP 1810 Saint Nicholas, Deptford, London, England

 

4. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 04 MAY 1812 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England

Bride: Martha Jefferies

 

5. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 22 MAY 1813 Great Budworth, Cheshire, England

 

6. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 02 JUL 1813 Bolton Upon Dearne, Yorkshire, England

Bride: Martha Sidney

 

Page 34 of 79

 

7. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 04 DEC 1814 Manchester, Lancashire, England

 

8. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 04 DEC 1814 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England

 

9. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 24 DEC 1814 Illogan, Cornwall, England

    

10. WILLIAM JACKSON - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 28 MAR 1814 Scarborough, Yorkshire, England

Bride: Martha Allen

    

     11. William JACKSON - Pedigree Resource File
Gender: M Marriage: 24 Dec 1814 Illogan Church, Illogan, Corn., Eng.

    

     12. William Jackson - Pedigree Resource File
Gender: M Marriage: 22 May 1813 Great Budworth, Cheshire, England

 

Results #2 and #6 appear to be the most promising given their Yorkshire locales, but of the two, #6 is the most probable since Bolton Upon Dearne in Yorkshire is a mere 6.8 miles from Greasbrough.  #10, Scarborough, although also in Yorkshire, is too far from Greasbrough (59 miles) and Sheffield (68 miles), to render it seriously plausible as far as it being the likely locale of the marriage of John Jackson’s parents; likewise the same can be concluded with all of the rest of these results or hits.  None of the above search results is more than a shot in the dark, and nothing whatever is absolutely certain, even as it pertains to #6 - the most plausible candidate of them all.  However, if we choose to accept #6 based on its apparent plausibility, then we can assume “Martha Sidney” to have been John Jackson’s birth mother.

 

Martha Sidney Birth (possible 1^st wife of Wm Jackson and mother of John Jackson)

per FamilySearch.org

 

Regarding Martha Sidney, assumed or presumed and possible first wife of William Jackson and birth mother of John Jackson, a search at FamilySearch.org yielded one and only one inconclusive and really rather suspect search result:

 

1.       Martha Sidney - International Genealogical Index / BI

Gender: Female Christening: 12 JUL 1795 St George's, Bristol, Gloucester, England

 

First of all, Gloucester and Bolton Upon Dearne (where it is suspected that William Jackson married a certain Martha Sidney circa 1813) are about 160 miles apart.  This record is highly uncertain and hardly worth noting except as a matter of record.

 

Sarah Jackson (2^nd child born to John and Mary Jackson) per FamilySearch.org

 

Again, still using FamilySearch.org, a similar search for John and Mary Jackson’s second born child and daughter: Sarah, yielded 5 possible hits; the first 4 of which were false hits since they were results from the 1881 UK Census describing various Sarah Jackson’s as being an adult and a wife, whereas we know that the Sarah Jackson in whom we are interested died in 1858 at just under 13 yrs of age and in the U.S.; in Hillsgrove, PA specifically.  The remaining hit, #5, ranks as “very possible” and this is it:

 

Page 35 of 79

 

5.  SARAH JACKSON - International Genealogical Index

Gender: Female Christening: 23 MAR 1845 Halifax, Yorkshire, England

Parents: John Jackson and Mary

 

Martha Jackson (3^rd child born to John and Mary Jackson) per FamilySearch.org

 

A search for John and Mary Jackson’s third child, Martha, yielded 1 and only 1 hit:

 

 1.  MARTHA JACKSON - International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Female Christening: 02 APR 1848 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

 Parents: John Jackson and Mary

 

Additional “most probable” to “most certain” search results at FamilySearch.org, and omitting the total number of obviously erroneous other hits for each of the following searches respectively, included:

 

Mary Bagshaw (wife of John Jackson) Christening/Birth per FamilySearch.org

 

 MARY BAGSHAW - International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Female Christening: 22 SEP 1816 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 Parents: Charles Bagshaw and Sarah

 

Charles Bagshaw (father of Mary Bagshaw) Christening & Marriage per FamilySearch.org:

 

 CHARLES BAGSHAW - International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Male Christening: 06 SEP 1793 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 Parents: Edward Bagshaw and Martha

 

 CHARLES BAGSHAW - International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Male Marriage: 28 AUG 1814 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 Bride: Sarah Bingham

 

Edward Bagshaw (father of Charles Bagshaw) Marriage per FamilySearch.org:

 

 EDWARD BAGSHAW - International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Male Marriage: 27 MAY 1787 Rotherham, Yorkshire, England

 Bride: Martha Harrop

 

Sarah Bingham (wife of Charles Bagshaw) Christening/Birth per FamilySearch.org:

 

 SARAH BINGHAM – International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Female Christening: 13 DEC 1791 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
 Parents: Martin Bingham and Mary

 

Martin Bingham (father of Sarah Bingham) Christening and Marriage per FamilySearch.org:

 

 MARTIN BINGHAM – International Genealogical Index
 Gender: Male Christening: 25 JAN 1771 Cathedral Saint Peter, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 Parents: Jos. Bingham, (no mother listed)

Page 36 of 79

 

 Martin BINGHAM – Pedigree Resource File
 Gender: Male Marriage: 1780 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

 Bride: Mary

 

All of these people are people about whom something is already known as indicated earlier in this work.  What this new information does is add heretofore unknown birth, marriage and/or christening data to each of their respective records, and as well repeats, confirms and supports what has previously been known or suspected about them.  But most interesting of all is the information pertaining specifically to Sarah and Martha Jackson, the first and second daughters born to John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson:

 

SARAH JACKSON – International Genealogical Index

Gender: Female Christening: 23 MAR 1845 Halifax, Yorkshire, England

Parents: John Jackson and Mary

 

MARTHA JACKSON – International Genealogical Index

Gender: Female Christening: 02 APR 1848 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Parents: John Jackson and Mary

 

If it is assumed that these christening records describe and pertain to the correct Sarah and Martha Jackson, a timeline can be drawn between the 1841 UK Census record showing John and Mary Jackson in Sheffield, Yorkshire and Martha’s 1848 birth 7 years later in Liverpool, Lancashire.

 

The only record that was returned at FamilySearch.org for a Sarah Jackson born to a father John Jackson and a mother Mary in England in the year 1845 is the one above.  The returned christening date, 23 Mar 1845, does not match what can be discerned as her birth date on her gravestone in the Hillsgrove Cemetery which, as best as I was able to determine, is either: 29 Mar 1845 or 21 Mar 1845.  If the first of these two dates is accepted, then the calculated age at the time of her death perfectly matches her age at death as it vaguely appears to be inscribed on her gravestone in Years, Months, Days format: “12 years, 11 Months, 25 Days.”

 

Three years later, Martha was born and the only record that was returned at FamilySearch.org for a Martha Jackson birth to a father John Jackson and a mother Mary in England in the year 1848 is the one above.   This particular Martha Jackson was christened on 2 Apr 1848 in Liverpool, Lancashire.  We know per the Passenger Manifest that she was recorded as 8 months old in early November, 1848, mathematically making March 1848 the month of her birth which very conveniently and immediately precedes April, the month of her christening, assuming of course that this is the correct Martha.

 

Statistically, how incredible is it that a Martha Jackson was born to a John and Mary Jackson set of parents, and christened on that convenient date and in Liverpool of all places, the very port at which the John and Mary Jackson family boarded the ship Tuscarora bound for America in the latter half of 1848?  Either this is not the correct Martha Jackson but is another Martha Jackson and is the most incredible of “same name / same parent names / expected birth date” coincidences, or this is indeed the correct Martha Jackson: third child and infant daughter of John and Mary Jackson.

 

If this Martha Jackson is the correct Martha Jackson, born in Liverpool, then one can logically conclude what must have been the procession of this family from Sheffield to Liverpool, since as it stands, it seems to me most practical to assume that this journey must have been a process rather than an event, and that this process likely occupied a period of time between the years 1842 and 1848.

 

Page 37 of 79

 

I thought it logically acceptable to imagine that their journey took them to Halifax where Sarah may have been born and christened in 1845 and that her birth in Halifax was basically the mid-point between their Sheffield start, sometime after 1841, and their Liverpool end in 1848.  The distance between Sheffield and Halifax is approx. 51 miles; Halifax to Liverpool is approx. 61 miles, making 112 miles the total length of the theoretical and circuitous journey from Sheffield to Liverpool, which would theoretically have occurred over the course of approx. 6 yrs: 1842 – 1848.

 

This theoretical, 2-step route from Sheffield to Halifax and then Halifax to Liverpool begins in a NN-Westerly direction from Sheffield to Halifax followed by a WS-Westerly route from Halifax to Liverpool.  Proceeding directly West from Sheffield to Liverpool would involve crossing what is referred to as “The Peak District,” a largely unpopulated and rugged hill and mountain area of considerable size which is situated between Manchester on the western side and Sheffield on the eastern side. The Peak District, then as now, is an essentially large and empty rural area and was seemingly devoid of money-making or livelihood opportunities for a young father in the 1840’s intent on moving himself and his family in the direction of his goal: Liverpool, and from there on to America.

 

Halifax, on the other hand, appears to be a town of some size along a circuitous route north and then west around the The Peak District that could or might have provided those kinds of necessary, albeit temporary, employment and livelihood opportunities.

 

The question is:  Was this the route the Jackson’s took which, if true, might make these Christening landmarks along its path evidentially significant, or did they cross the Peak District in a more direct fashion and in one go, thus rendering these Christening records merely coincidental and unrelated events?  I posed this question at the Sheffield FHS genealogy forum:

 

==========================================================================

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum / General Family History / Sheffield to Liverpool & The Peak District

 

Posted by: mgc, June 1^st, 2008, 2:33pm

There are those who maintain that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but here’s one that may fall into that category:

In 1848, would a family wishing to travel from Sheffield to Liverpool necessarily do so by travelling westward through the Peak District, or would they more likely take a NNW route around the Peak District to, say, someplace like Halifax, then of course, WSW toward Liverpool?

In other words, in 1848, were there enough accommodations and/or roads running through the Peak District in a westerly direction from Sheffield toward Liverpool or would this have been an illogical route to take for a family with three small children?

It appears to me from pictures and maps I’ve seen that the Peak District is today a rather rural and even empty area.  One can imagine from this what it must have been like 150 or more years ago.

Dumb as this question may seem, it does have some certain and specific genealogical ramifications.
Thanks…..

 

Mike,

Sullivan Co, Pennsylvania, USA

 

 

Page 38 of 79

 

Posted by: Procat, June 2^nd, 2008, 9:19am; Reply: 1

Hi Mike,
They may have gone by train. I have an 1840 UK atlas (well a reprint thereof at any rate).

There was the Manchester and Sheffield railway which ran from Sheffield to Penistone to Glossop to near Stalybridge to near Ashton to Manchester. There was then a line from Manchester to Liverpool.

There were other alternatives by rail but this seems the most convenient direct.

 

Posted by: mgc, June 2^nd, 2008, 11:19pm; Reply: 2

Thanks for that info... which indicates that by rail was the likely transportation candidate if traveling directly west from Sheffield in the 1840s.   Basically, I’m trying to find or conjure-up any kind of argument that would “steal away” or “out-argue” the legitimacy of a record of a christening I found for a certain Jackson child with the correct first name, correct parents, and correct birth date, but which occurred in Halifax in 1845.

 

The implication being that the act of moving from Sheffield to Liverpool was a process and not an event, and that this process was a 2-step procedure which took them from Sheffield NNW to Halifax, then WSW from Halifax to Liverpool, where an additional child was christened in 1848, again with the correct first name, correct parents, and correct or expected date of birth.

One would think that I would be elated and quite satisfied with these two christening finds, but I’m a freak for accuracy, and I guess I’m sort of anticipating or even inventing any kind of argument against these findings that is possible before committing to a “victory,” genealogically speaking, if you know what I mean.
Mike

 

Posted by: mgc, June 3^rd, 2008, 9:19pm; Reply: 3

The more I think about the train thing, the more I am inclined to think that ‘by train’ wasn’t the mode they employed in getting from Sheffield to Liverpool in 1848.  First of all, they were dirt poor.  Secondly, have you seen pics of some of those trains back then?  Yikes!  Some of those locomotives looked like glorified 50 gallon drums bolted to a set of wheels!
Mike

 

Posted by: Kate Stabb, June 4^th, 2008, 6:53am; Reply: 4

Hi Mike and Doug,
I have wondered along similar lines for some time. I know my forebears came from Tipperary around 1850 and believe they arrived first in Liverpool then made their way to Sheffield. Family lore has it that they came over to escape the conditions in Ireland due to the potato blight. I know they were illiterate and poor but found work in the steel industry. I really don’t think they could afford a train, so if you have any ideas, I would be very grateful. Thanks for asking the question Mike.
Kate

 

Posted by: Procat, June 4^th, 2008, 8:21am; Reply: 5

Hi Mike and Kate,

I have no knowledge of how affordable train travel was however I suspect that you may well be correct in thinking it may have been expensive (even third class) for the likes of ag labourers etc. I remember reading somewhere that train travel had a huge impact on the population and the ability to travel but I do not recall the time frame.

If they didn’t go by train I suspect the alternatives would be by foot or by wagon. If they could not afford a train it would be unlikely that they could afford to go by coach.

 

Posted by: mgc, June 4^th, 2008, 9:53am; Reply: 6

All of this points to the likelihood that getting somewhere significantly distant must have been for most people a process and not a singular event, per se.  And I’m getting more elated by the moment here since this seeming truth, or at least likelihood, tends to support two Jackson births between Sheffield and Liverpool, one in Halifax in 1845, then one in Liverpool in early 1848, before departure from Liverpool to Philadelphia in late 1848.

 

 

Page 39 of 79

 

In  Kate’s case, the process was in the opposite direction (Ireland -à Liverpool, Liverpool -à Sheffield), and I suppose you could expect that the voyage from Ireland to Liverpool probably pretty much wiped them out financially for a spell.  They may have stopped off in Manchester or anywhere else for a time before eventually moving on and finding their way to Sheffield.  I’m just thinking out loud here.  (I am going to take a closer look at the evolution of railroads though, just for kicks, sort of).

Ah, the problem of logistics adding further confusion to the quest for information!
Without this forum, where else would we or could we vent these bewilderments?

Mike

==========================================================================

 

This discussion and these thoughts give great weight to the argument that says Sarah Jackson may have been born in Halifax and Martha in Liverpool.

 

And here again, as with Martha, how incredible is it statistically, that this search resulted in only one record of a Sarah Jackson being born to a John and Mary Jackson set of parents and at such a convenient time, in Yorkshire, and not too far from Sheffield; along what appears to be a logical, circumnavigatory path of sorts between Sheffield and Liverpool?

 

Realizing how critical it was to establish the actual and documented birthplace of Sarah as it pertains to this idea of a migratory route (1842 to 1848) from Sheffield, to Halifax, to Liverpool, I queried the Sheffield FHS District Forum regarding this matter:

 

==========================================================================

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum / General Family History / Sarah Jackson

Posted by: mgc, June 4th, 2008, 9:30pm

 

Is there a way (an easy way, hopefully) of determining if a Birth Registration or Christening Record (or both) exists in Sheffield for a:

Sarah Jackson
DOB: March, 1845 (Mar 21, 23 and 29 are possibles)
Parents: John and Mary Jackson

Is there anything like a master look-up file somewhere that facilitates this without having to rifle through hundreds of ancient documents?

Fingers are crossed.... Mike

 

Posted by: Lozzie, June 4th, 2008, 11:14pm; Reply: 1

Hi Mike

The registration is:
Births Jun 1845   (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JACKSON  Sarah    Sheffield  22 563

Purchasing the birth certificate will give you the address that she was born at..  which may narrow down to the actual church she was baptized at.  It will also give her mothers maiden name

 

Page 40 of 79

Without an area of where she lived, I think it could be a big task to track down her baptism.  Also  children weren't always baptized at an early age... I have them baptized at 5, 8 and even 10 years old....along with the youngest sibling!

Sorry if I wasn't  much help
Loz

 

Posted by: mgc, June 4th, 2008, 11:28pm; Reply: 2

Hi and Thanks Loz,

What does "The registration is: Births Jun 1845   (>99%)" mean ?
And what is "Sheffield  22 563" ?

I'm a complete idiot here.   Another problem is that I'm in the U.S.  The last known address of her parents in Sheffield was Andrew St. in 1841, and if I had to guess what church any birth registration or christening took place, I would guess the Cathedral.

Thanks again… Mike

Posted by: HughW, June 5th, 2008, 2:13am; Reply: 3

Hello Mike,

The information that Loz has given is an entry from the GRO index. The GRO is the general Register Office, the body set up in 1837 to register all BMDs in England and Wales.

Loz got this entry from the [url]http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

[/url] transcription which I can tell because the '>99%' is a measure of how complete that transcription is for that quarter.

The GRO index is in fact many indexes - one for each quarter and 'Jun 1845' shows that this entry appears in the index for the Apr/May/Jun quarter of the year. With a birth in late March and 6 weeks allowed to register a birth this is the expected quarter.

Sheffield 22 563 is the reference showing where in the centrally held GRO register the full record of the birth can be found. We cannot access it ourselves, we have to buy a certificate onto which the details have been copied.

'Sheffield' is the registration district (R.D. for short). The town was covered by 2 registration districts, the other being Ecclesall Bierlow.

22 (sometimes listed as XX) is the number of the register volume at the GRO which includes Sheffield R.D. A few years after this date the numbering was changed and Sheffield entries were designated volume 9c.

563 is the page number within that volume.

This reference is used when applying for a certificate from the central GRO. Local register offices do not use this system.  I hope that helps, please continue to ask questions about anything that isn't clear. We were all beginners once  :)

Hugh

 

Posted by: mgc, June 5th, 2008, 2:31am; Reply: 4

OK... I think I got it Loz...

Sheffield  22 563 = Vol and Page in the Registry (or something like that), but I am quite sure that this particular Sarah Jackson's birth month was March and not June and that it was likely one of these two dates: 21st or the 29th, (big MAYBE: the 23rd)

 

Page 41 of 79

Her parents names were John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson (Here we go again folks, for all of you who waded through these people the last time I harangued you all with them back in January).

The problem I'm trying to solve is defining exactly where this daughter, Sarah Jackson, was born... be it in Sheffield or possibly in Halifax.  I found a Sarah Jackson christened in Halifax 23 Mar 1845  with a set of parents: John and Mary Jackson, but the problem is that on Sarah Jackson's gravestone here in Pennsylvania, her DOB is inscribed as what appears to be either 21 Mar 1845 or 29 Mar 1845.   In other words, if she was born in the 29th she couldn't have been christened on the 23rd... or.... there is a mistake somewhere with somebody's dates.... or.... these two Sarah Jacksons aren't the same people, regardless of the fact that they were born in YKS on virtually the same day of the same month in the same year, and with both sets of parents each having the same names.

If she was actually born on the 21st of March, then one might conclude that she could theoretically be christened two days later on the 23rd.  The problem is basically two-fold:

1.) Which date was she born on: 21st or 29th of March, 1845?
2.) What locale - Sheffield (where they were living in 1841), or Halifax?

Mike

 

Posted by: mgc, June 5th, 2008, 2:36am; Reply: 5

Thanks Hugh... I didn't see your post because I was still typing mine.  We were about 15 mins apart.

Mike

 

Posted by: mgc, June 5th, 2008, 2:44am; Reply: 6

So, basically, it appears I would have to purchase two certificates to determine which of these two Sarah Jacksons is the one I'm looking for: One from Halifax pertaining to the christening, and one from Sheffield pertaining to a birth registration.  Did I get that right?

Thanks again Hugh,
Mike

 

Posted by: HughW, June 5th, 2008, 3:14am; Reply: 7

I would order the Sheffield birth certificate first. The local transcription of the BMD indexes at http://libplugins.sheffield.gov.uk/bmd/SearchMain.aspx suggests that this birth was registered in the sub-district of Brightside, which is right for Andrew Street.

Do not be put off by the fact that no baptism has yet been found in Sheffield. There has been no indexing of the baptisms for Sheffield Parish Church for this date.

Certificates can be ordered online at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/. It is also possible to order them through the Sheffield Council site but at the moment  they cannot accept payments by credit card.
Hugh

 

Posted by: mgc, June 5th, 2008, 11:12am; Reply: 8

Thanks Hugh and Loz......

It's ordered!

And assuming this works, and I get a positive result, it may answer some questions.  Then again, even if the results aren't "positive" then that too will answer some questions.  (Sort of like Edison and the search for the correct light bulb filament alloy - a hunt and peck exercise).

Thanks…

Mike

 

 

Page 42 of 79

 

==========================================================================

My Comment:  As is evidenced and as advised, I ordered the Sarah Jackson birth registration certificate as suggested by Hugh and Loz on June 5, 2008.  The birth certificate I ordered was for a Sarah Jackson born in Sheffield, 1845, Vol 22 Page 563.

==========================================================================

 

Posted by: mgc, June 22nd, 2008, 12:29am; Reply: 9

To Hugh and Loz....

Today I received in the mail, a certified copy of Sarah Jackson's birth registration certificate.  It happens that it is in fact the correct Sarah Jackson, born in Sheffield in 1845, and this puts to rest any theory I had that these Jacksons were on the move by then toward Liverpool (sort of) and that Sarah might have been born in Halifax.

I think it's amazing to think that in just under 13 yrs after this poor girl was born in Sheffield, England, she was deceased due to measles outside a really tiny, remote and primitive hamlet in the trackless mountain wilderness of northern Pennsylvania in 1858.  Incredible!

Thanks to you both for your input and advice and for steering me in the right direction.   As always, it is greatly appreciated.

Mike

==========================================================================

 

 

Sarah Jackson Birth Registry Certificate

 

21 June 2008

On this date I received a certified and correct copy of Sarah Jackson’s Birth Registry Certificate from the General Register Office (GRO) in Merseyside, UK, (GRO Registry Reference: Vol 22, Page 563). The Certificate stipulates the following information:

 

• DOB: 20 March 1848
• POB: No. 60, Pye Bank Road, Sheffield
• Date Registered: 14 April 1844
• Parents: John Jackson and Mary Jackson (formerly Bagshaw)

 

What locks this as being the correct Sarah Jackson is the stipulated maiden surname of Sarah’s mother: “Mary Bagshaw.”  How useful and incredibly fortunate is that!  It appears also that per the Birth Registration, John and Mary did indeed move, but not very far since in 1845 and at the time of Sarah’s birth, they were still in the general neighborhood or vicinity of their former Andrew Street address as recorded in the 1841 UK Census.  This new address, Pye Bank Road, is only about 1 mile or less from Andrew Street and still in the Brightside district of Sheffield.

 

This discovery puts to rest my theory or suspicion that Sarah may have been born in Halifax, during the time of a theoretical family migration of sorts which was thought or suspected by me to have occurred and transpired as a 2-step process from Sheffield to Halifax, then later from Halifax to Liverpool.  This theory, for which I am solely responsible, was inspired by the record I found at FamilySearch.org which described a Sarah Jackson christening and whose parents were recorded as being a John and Mary Jackson, in Halifax on or about the expected and seemingly correct date in the year 1845.

 

Page 43 of 79

 

With this latest proof, it is now established and certain that John and Mary Jackson and family were still living in Sheffield in 1845 at the time of Sarah’s birth, and the earlier FamilySearch.org Sarah Jackson record reflects an entirely different Jackson family.

 

The question of Martha’s place of birth in 1848 remains unanswered and unknown and the suspicion that her birthplace may have been Liverpool is still a viable and logical possibility, again given information I found at FamilySearch.org which, as with Sarah, points to a Martha Jackson being christened in Liverpool on an acceptable or expected date in 1848, and whose parents were recorded as John and Mary Jackson.  Establishing the certainty of Martha’s place of birth will be the next step.

 

22 June 2008 – On this date, online at FreeBMD, I found and ordered a possibly correct birth registration certificate from GRO (for info pertaining to GRO, see Page 54) for a Martha Jackson, born in Sheffield, in the year 1848.  This particular birth was registered in the second quarter of the year 1848, and the GRO Birth Registry details are: Vol 22, Page 681.

 

24 June 2008 – On this date, online at FreeBMD, I ordered what I found to be a possibly correct birth registration certificate from GRO (for info pertaining to GRO, see Page 54) for a George Jackson, born in Sheffield, in the year 1841.  This particular birth was registered in the last quarter of the year 1841, and the GRO Birth Registry details are: Vol 22, Page 537.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Initially, I found it hard to believe that in 1848, passage could be arranged and paid in Sheffield for an ocean voyage beginning in Liverpool.  It seemed to me that one would have needed to be in the Liverpool area and near the ships to gain access to that opportunity, and that normally one had to get there in steps, especially if prohibitively poor and burdened with a family comprising one wife and three small children as John Jackson was… not to mention Ann Glossip (Glossop) and her two children who were also recorded on the ship and evidently or seemingly traveling with John, Mary and family.

 

I posted the following query at the Sheffield & District Genealogy Forum regarding this notion I had and which resulted in the following responses:

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum / General Family History / Vol XXII

Posted by: mgc, June 24^th, 2008, 9:35pm

 

Is it possible to anticipate the locale of an event based on the Vol Number as it appears for a Registry page entry?

Specifically, does a Vol Number of “22” for a Birth Registry entry in 1841 suggest or point to a birth in Sheffield..., or Brightside even more specifically?  Does this sound like I know what I’m talking about here?

Mike

 

Posted by: topaz1v, June 25^th, 2008, 1:11am; Reply: 1

Hi Mike,
I have looked through various of my BMD transcriptions and you cannot pinpoint an exact area for Vol. 22 as it could be many parts of Yorkshire, i.e.: Doncaster, Sheffield, Wortley, Barnsley,Halifax, they all come under Vol.22 yet Leeds comes under Vol. 23, these are all handwritten and sometimes very hard to read but I have looked  through about 20 transcriptions and I what I came up with.

Regards, Jean

 

Page 44 of 79

 

Posted by: topaz1v, June 25^th, 2008, 1:14am; Reply: 2

forgot to add were you looking for a specific person, can I help
jean

 

Posted by: Angela, June 25^th, 2008, 7:07am; Reply: 3

Hi Mike.

You need to use the local register office index and for Sheffield this is at
http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/register-office

Scroll down to “To search the index of births, deaths and marriages in Sheffield”

This actually gives you the district. E.g.; Sheffield North, Sheffield South, Nether Hallam, Brightside Bierlow etc....which will help you pinpoint the certificate you require.

S&DFHS are indexing these and I know that every record is checked against the original as one of the transcribers. We are up to the year 1875 at present.

Hugh used this site when he pinpointed your Sarah Jackson.
Angela

Posted by: HughW, June 25^th, 2008, 7:13am; Reply: 4

GRO references should always be quoted with the relevant registration district.

These were the registration districts covered by Volume 22:

Barnsley
Dewsbury
Doncaster
Ecclesall Bierlow
Ecclesfield
Halifax
Huddersfield
Pontefract
Rotherham
Sheffield
Wakefield
Wortley

The original indexes do not give information about where events were registered within the RD, but the ongoing indexing project for Sheffield BMDs does show sub-districts.
See:
http://libplugins.sheffield.gov.uk/bmd/SearchMain.aspx

Hugh

 

Posted by: mgc, June 25th, 2008, 9:31am; Reply: 5

Thanks to ALL of you for your responses and your help.

I came up with this question as an after thought after having placed an order for a Birth Certificate for an individual born in Sheffield in 1841...:

To answer Jean's question specifically, this individual's name was George Jackson, born in Sheffield in June of 1841 to parents John and Mary (Bagshaw) Jackson who were recorded in the 1841 Census living at a Brightside address: Andrew St.  A few days ago I received the correct Birth Certificate copy for the next-born child, a girl, Sarah Jackson, born in 1845 in Sheffield and again in Brightside, but at a different address although only about, or less than, a mile away: Pye Bank Road.

Page 45 of 79

 

"Very close in proximity" being what I can discern from this side of the Atlantic and street maps of Sheffield that can be viewed online.

Happily, there was a third child born in the UK, this time in 1848, Martha Jackson, to these same parents, and because these 3 births are spread out as they are between 1841 and their immigration to the States in 1848, I am hoping to track their movements, if any, in the UK prior to boarding a ship in Liverpool in the latter half of 1848.

I found and ordered as well a Birth Certificate copy for a Martha Jackson, also born in Sheffield, in 1848 and again recorded in Vol 22.

My belief is that Martha was born in March of 1848 since she was recorded in November of that year on the Passenger Manifest as being 8 months old, and I find it hard to believe that this family transported themselves, with an infant no less, to Liverpool from Sheffield in basically a rush, or so it seems.  Was it possible that one could purchase passage in Sheffield on a ship destined to leave Liverpool months later?  Maybe the question isn't so much Vol Number, but rather by what method did one buy passage on a ship destined to leave Liverpool at some future date when or if one is living in Sheffield?  I would have guessed that in 1848, one had to be close to the actual ships in Liverpool to accomplish this.

Mike

 

Posted by: HughW, June 26th, 2008, 1:55am; Reply: 6

I think that the economy of this country in the 1840's was more sophisticated than you give it credit for. In a period of extraordinary growth in industry and the market for goods, as well as the financial mechanisms for moving and manipulating money, I cannot think that the purchase far from the ports of tickets for berths on ships can have been a problem.

Although the following entry in an 1841 directory (listed at Sheffield Indexers), relates to a different destination, I am sure there were similar agents for North America:

Chaloner, Geo (~, Printer, Bookseller & Stationer. Australian Emigration Agent).
Residing at 47 Church St, in 1841.
Recorded in: Henry & Thos. Rodgers Sheff & Roth Directory - 1841.

Hugh

 

Posted by: mgc, June 26th, 2008, 10:31am; Reply: 7

Thanks Hugh,

I don't doubt that there is a logical explanation for overcoming what appear to be logistics problems, financial and otherwise, since after all they did in fact do the trip, and there must have been an agent in Sheffield who facilitated this.

Assuming that the ordered Birth Certificate for Martha Jackson who was born in March or April of 1848 will indicate the correct parents and a Sheffield address, a mere 8 months prior to embarkation on an American ship at Liverpool, one can only conclude that there must have been some kind of agent in Sheffield who facilitated and organized the Passage transaction and maybe even the solution to actually getting to Liverpool.

What I do know however, is that this would not have worked here in the US at that time.  The distances were just too vast and the business infrastructure and the organization (or lack of it) beyond the port cities and into the interior just didn't support that kind of thing, and it wasn't because they didn't want to do it or couldn't do it if they had to as much as there was just no need for it.   The same can probably be said for the rural and more remote regions in Britain, and the reality of actually living in Sheffield where business (of all kinds) was booming was a probably a fortunate or at least facilitating happenstance for, in this case, this Jackson family.  (Just thinking out loud here).  Interesting stuff, or at least I think so.

 

Mike

==========================================================================

Page 46 of 79

 

Martha Jackson Birth Registry Certificate

 

30 June 2008

On this date I received a certified and correct copy of Martha Jackson’s Birth Registry Certificate from the General Register Office (GRO), Merseyside, UK, (GRO Registry Reference: Vol 22, Page 681).  The Certificate stipulates the following information:

 

• DOB: 24 April 1848
• POB: Burgess Street, Sheffield
• Date Registered: 04 May 1848
• Parents: John Jackson and Mary Jackson (formerly Bagshaw)

 

“Mary Jackson, formerly Bagshaw” locks this as being the correct birth record, and the Burgess Street address, being the place of Martha’s birth, indicates that they had indeed moved again but within Sheffield itself, sometime between 1845 (Sarah’s birth) and 1848 (Martha’s birth).

 

FamilySearch.org, it appears, has led me on a wild goose chase as it pertains to Sarah and Martha Jackson specifically.  This received and correct Martha Jackson birth certificate silences, once and for all, any argument or notion based on information returned at FamilySearch.org which implies, suggests, or points to the possibility that this Jackson family was on the move between Sheffield and Liverpool during any period between the time of Sarah’s birth and Martha’s birth registration date of 4 May 1848.  I was totally off the mark and mislead by the other seemingly correct Christening records which I found at FamilySearch.org, since they were, in fact, false leads describing events that actually pertained to entirely different people.

 

I am convinced now that passage arrangements from Sheffield to Liverpool were arranged in Sheffield, and that the journey from Sheffield to Liverpool did in fact occur as an event as opposed to a process.  Martha Jackson’s Sheffield Birth Certificate suggests that trans-Atlantic passage and fare arrangements aboard the American ship Tuscarora were very likely made and paid for in Sheffield, and that this must have likewise been facilitated by and through an agent in Sheffield.

 

The Tuscarora itself was as well a new-born of sorts, having been launched a mere 2 ½ months earlier in Philadelphia on February 15^th, 1848.  The next 4 months were spent fitting-out this new ship in the Cope Bros. Line at Philadelphia, PA before it’s image was captured as a watercolor painting by D. J. Kennedy as it lay “…in the stream” (the Delaware River) in June of 1848.  Meanwhile, 3600 miles away in Sheffield, England, John Jackson and family were by then imbued with a vision of departure for the New World and were destined to board the Tuscarora at Liverpool in late September, 1848.

 

==========================================================================

 

Sheffield & District FHS Message Forum  /  Private Messages  /  Vol 22, etc

Posted by: mgc, July 1^st, 2008, 3:08am

Hi Hugh, Hi Angela,

Rather than clog-up the flow of other members and their more recent or current questions and problems on the greater forum floor, I thought it best to simply contact you this way to let you know that today I received the second of two correct Birth Registration Certificates: Martha Jackson (b. 1848) and one about a week and a half ago for Sarah Jackson (b. 1845).

 

Page 47 of 79

 

In both cases, the parents are correct with the added bonus of their mother’s maiden name being also included on the Certificate (Bagshaw), which locks it for both.

You were right Hugh... passage to Liverpool and arrangements for a trans-Atlantic crossing must have been handled by or through an agent in Sheffield, and that England of the 1840’s, (including interior regions away from shipping like Sheffield), was quite capable of this.

Most importantly, I want to Thank You both for this site, your time, patience and advice without which none of this would have happened for me.

Best Regards, Mike

 

==========================================================================

 

George Jackson Birth Registry Certificate

 

10 July 2008

On this date I received a certified and correct copy of George Jackson’s Birth Registry Certificate from the General Register Office (GRO), Merseyside, UK, (GRO Registry Reference: Vol 22, Page 537).  The Certificate stipulates the following information:

 

• DOB: 29 Sept 1841
• POB: Andrew Street, Sheffield
• Date Registered: 23 Oct 1841
• Parents: John Jackson and Mary Jackson (formerly Bagshaw)

 

Andrew Street was the location at which they were recorded as living on June 6 of that year when the 1841 UK Census was conducted and which also appears to have been in the home of Sarah Bagshaw, Mary’s widowed mother and apparent head of household.

 

There has been considerable confusion and misinformation regarding George’s date of birth and even more as it pertains to his date of death.  The work of some researchers indicates George’s DOB to have been 10 Jan 1841.  I myself accepted this date as being valid until I noticed his DOB as it was recorded in the 1900 US Fed Census.  First of all, George, it appears, was counted and recorded twice in 1900: Once in Hillsgrove, Sullivan County, PA and once in Union Twp, Tioga County, PA.

 

• In Hillsgrove, Sullivan Co, George’s DOB was recorded as “10 Jun 1841”
• In Union Twp, Tioga Co, George’s DOB was recorded as “Sep 1842”

 

It appears per the 1900 Census record that George was staying with a married son, Charles, who resided in Hillsgrove.  It is my belief that George must have been working at the Tannery in Hillsgrove, perhaps on a temporary basis and staying with his married son’s family there for the period that work was available, and must have been periodically returning home to his wife, Martha A. (Boyles) Jackson and their as yet unmarried, younger children in Union Twp, Tioga County.

 

George would not have been counted in Hillsgrove had he not, in fact, been there: Living there on a temporary or transient sort of basis, but living there nonetheless.  Also, to date, no record of what must have been George’s post-1910 / pre-1920 death has been found.

 

Page 48 of 79

 

Using this logic, I reasoned that it must have been George himself who supplied his date of birth: “10 Jun 1841.”  This mistaken revelation conveniently and very neatly accomplished several things:

 

1.)    A 10 Jun 1841 DOB would explain why George was not recorded in 1841 UK Census since the official date of that census was 6 June 1841.  I reasoned that when the Census was conducted, George was essentially 4 days away from being born, and hence not recorded.  Had George been born on 10 Jan 1841, as his DOB is so often repeated in various genealogies, he would have been recorded in the 1841 UK Census along with his parents, John and Mary Jackson, at their then Andrew Street address in Sheffield, which he was not.

 

2.)    It appeared that the handwritten DOB: “10 Jun 1841”  as it was recorded in the 1900 US Census in Hillsgrove must have been misread or misinterpreted somewhere along the line, where “Jun” was incorrectly read or transcribed by somebody as “Jan”… a closed “a” versus an open “u.”

 

3.)    I reasoned also that George’s DOB as it was recorded in the 1900 Census at Hillsgrove must have come from George himself and was therefore the correct DOB since no one else would have had more precise knowledge of George’s DOB than George himself!

 

 

Martha A. (Boyles) Jackson, George’s wife at home in Tioga County, was likewise visited by a Census Taker and she likely explained that her husband George was at work.  She probably didn’t go into the details and particulars of where George was working and staying, (albeit on a temporary and commuter-like basis), and it appears the enumerator or Census Taker accepted her explanation, and did not predict or assume that George might therefore be counted twice and for similar or same reasons over in Hillsgrove.  The enumerator in Tioga County duly recorded what information Martha supplied regarding George’s date of birth as: “Sep 1842”.

 

As George’s Birth Registration Certificate shows, Martha A. (Boyles) Jackson, his wife, got the month right, but the year wrong.  The Certificate also implies that, in fact, it probably wasn’t George himself who supplied his own birth date in Hillsgrove, but more likely his son, or worse - his son’s wife, and whereas they got the year right, both the month and date are wrong.

 

The conclusion: All sources and genealogies found thus far specifying various and sundry dates of birth for George (aka “Pappy”) Jackson are all incorrect; excluding of course the recently received and certified copy of George’s 1841 British Birth Registration Certificate; DOB: 29 Sept 1841.

 

One Clarifying Note For The Record:

 

George Jackson married Martha A. Boyles.  George Jackson’s sister, Martha Jackson, married William J. Boyles, the brother of George Jackson’s wife, Martha.   In other words, the brother and sister of one family each married the respective brother and sister of another family, with both women sharing the name “Martha.”  In this way and for this reason, the Jackson and the Boyles families were very closely associated, and I now more fully understand the childhood memory I have of my Grandmother, Florence Mildred (Jackson) Clark, frequently referring to and recollecting the Boyles family.  As a child, and while passing in the car, I distinctly remember her pointing out various family’s houses and a farm that was the “Boyles farm,” the specific location of which, I don’t now recall.

 

 

Page 49 of 79

 

 

Summary of Information as it appears on the Birth Registry Certificates for each of John and Mary Jackson’s three UK-born children

 

  When and                                                                                 Occp’tion        Signature &               When          Signature

 Where Born         Name         Sex        Father            Mother            of Father        Residence of          Regist’d             of

                                                                                                                                                   Informant                                 Registrar

29th of Sep 1841, Andrew Street	George	Boy	John Jackson	Mary Jackson, formerly Bagshaw	Table Blade Maker	“X” The mark of Mary, Mother, Andrew Street	23rd of  Oct, 1841	George Sykes, Registrar
20th of Mar 1845, No. 60 Pye Bank, Brightside-Bierlow	Sarah	Girl	John Jackson	Mary Jackson, formerly Bagshaw	Table Blade Striker	“X” The mark of Mary, Mother, 60 Pye Bank, Brightside-Bierlow	20th of Apr, 1845	George Sykes, Registrar
24th of Apr 1848, Burgess St., Sheffield	Martha	Girl	John Jackson	Mary Jackson, formerly Bagshaw	Table Blade Forger	“X” The mark of John Jackson, Father, Burgess Street, Sheffield	4th of May, 1848	George Taylor, Registrar

 

Charles Bagshaw Death (husband of Sarah Bagshaw; father of Mary Bagshaw)

 

Today, 19 July 2008, I received a certified and correct copy of Charles Bagshaw’s Death Registration Certificate from the General Register Office (GRO), Merseyside, UK, (GRO Registry Reference: Vol 22, Page 341).  The Certificate stipulates the following information:

 

DOD: 20 September 1840      Date Registered: 22 September 1840

Place of Death: Andrew Street, Sheffield

Age: 47 years    Cause of Death: “decline”

Signature and Residence of Informant: Sarah Bagshaw, Andrew Street

 

 

Olive Grace (Salisbury) Jackson’s Account in the “Souvenir of Hillsgrove” (1934)

 

Up until now, the only documentary reference source available regarding the families of William Jackson and John and Mary Jackson was the two-page dedication to them written by Olive Grace (Salisbury) Jackson for the 1934 memorial publication entitled: “Souvenir of Hillsgrove.”   The full text of what Grace wrote involves Pages 43 and 44 of that publication.  Everything that Grace wrote for the “Souvenir” was generally accepted as being fundamentally accurate, and understandably so since her account was all that anybody had to go on.  However, a bit of scrutiny coupled with the enlightenment of recent discoveries reveals a number of what appear to be primarily date-specific errors in her account.

 

Grace was born in1868 and was the surviving 2^nd wife of John Lyman Jackson - he being the youngest of John and Mary Jackson’s children.  “Lyman” died in 1929 and Grace went on to live a long life before passing away in 1954.  She and Lyman had a rather large family and many descendants.  The descendants of Lyman’s first marriage to Julia Ann (Fuller) Jackson are considerably fewer in number.

 

Page 50 of 79

 

Only one of Lyman’s three children by Julia was male: Raymond E. Jackson, my (G-Grandfather), and likewise he too had three children of which only one was male: Raymond Sidney (“Sid”) Jackson.  Sid went on to have two children of his own, and only one of them was a son: Joseph Jackson.  Raymond E. Jackson’s descendants are spread far and wide, and contact between most of them (us) is, was and remains relatively minimal at best to non-existent in some instances.  To my knowledge, none of John and Mary’s other children or their respective spouse’s actively perpetuated and documented Jackson family history as Grace seems to have done.  The only other person who approached or equaled Grace’s level of Jackson family interest and knowledge was my Grandmother, Florence Mildred (Jackson) Clark, (1904 – 1995), born in Hillsgrove; the eldest child of Raymond E. Jackson.

 

All of this helps to explain what evolved into being Grace’s apparent matriarchal Jackson status; most specifically as it pertained to her descendants.  To many, she was the last link to what became an otherwise distant and seemingly unknowable Jackson past.  According to Bill Brenchley, she to her many descendants, was the source of knowledge and answers on all matters Jackson, and I am sure that it was for this reason that she was petitioned to write her Jackson family tribute for the “Souvenir of Hillsgrove.”  Here is a small portion of what Grace wrote:

 

 

Fig. 1

Excerpt from: “Souvenir of Hillsgrove,” Page 43

 

• First of all, we now know with certainty that John and Mary Jackson arrived in Philadelphia in November of 1848 which renders as incorrect Grace’s implied assertion that John Jackson’s pioneer venture began in 1846.  1846 is at least 2 yrs too early, (see also Fig. 2, Page 51).  However, if we accept as true, or “accurate-enough,” her assertion that there was, in fact, a 6-yr period between William’s year of emigration and John’s year of immigration, then we can calculate 1842 as being the presumptive, or implied year of William’s immigration as opposed to 1840 as Grace stipulated in the “Souvenir.”

 

• The opening sentence of this paragraph states that William reared “…a large family of which Johnny was the oldest…”  We know that John was about 20 yrs of age in 1835 when he married Mary Bagshaw which implies that John’s siblings were likely at various ages in their teens and pre-teens in 1835, and how many there were in all is simply unknown.  But if at least one of these alleged siblings was under 10 yrs old in 1835, then the youngest of them would likely not have been more than about 12 to 14 yrs of age by the time of William’s theoretical 1842 emigration to America, which we are arithmetically forced to conclude, must not have occurred before 1842 since that disputes the youngest child, or children, being fully “raised” by then.

 

Page 51 of 79

 

• The forenamed “Mary,” (2^nd wife of Wm Jackson), is a possible to probable error or misnomer since this person was recorded in the 1850 Census as “Martha.”  One or the other of these two sources is incorrect, and given that there appear to be certain errors or inaccuracies in Grace’s account in the “Souvenir,” my opinion was initially weighted heavily in favor of the Census record in this matter and that William’s 2^nd wife’s name was in fact “Martha.”

 

• Regarding the mysterious “Jack”…: As we know, “Jack” is often used as a nickname and assigned to males who have the first name “John,” as with President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who was and is often referred to as “Jack Kennedy.”    With more than one “John” around and because I suspected Ann “Glossip” as being the possible wife of “Jack” and as well the mother of an additional John:  2 yr old John “Glossip” (per the 1848 Passenger Manifest), it is logical and not necessarily surprising that one or the other of these “Johns” may have been dubbed with the nickname “Jack.”  Assuming this is so, then “Jack” may actually have been “John Glossop,” son of William Jackson’s 2nd wife, Mary (or Martha) and the husband of Ann “Glossip” (Glossop).

 

Sometimes the truth is hinted in the errors.  Examples: During the course of this research, I became aware that the surname “Glossop” is a typically Yorkshire and Derbyshire name.  There is even a town in Yorkshire that is called Glossop.  I noted that Glossop sounds very much like Goslip, and because Glossop is an especially unusual name in the U.S., and unheard of in Sullivan County, I suspected that “Goslip” is actually an Americanized version or pronounced corruption of it, (see “1841 UK Census - Surname Freq Stats in Sheffield,” Page 74).  The same can be said regarding “Grisbrook” as being the elder John Jackson’s place of birth per his 1903 obituary, while it is virtually certain that his actual place of birth was Greasbrough.  “Grisbrook” is quite certain to have been what some unknown listener(s) thought they heard John Jackson say in the manner and dialect that he, as a former Yorkshire resident, would have pronounced it.  The origin or evolution of these errors is not specifically known,  though they may be attributable to Grace, or to any or all of her contemporaries. 

 

The assertion (Fig. 1) that: “…Six years later, Johnny’s father and stepmother joined Johnny in his pioneer venture…” appears faulty--the implication there being: 6 yrs after 1840, or 1846 as being the start-year or beginning of the Jackson venture in Sullivan County.  Grace went on to stipulate an 1846 arrival in Sullivan County in the following extracted phrase:

 

 

Fig. 2

An 1846 arrival in Hillsgrove is off by being at least 2 years too early,

and more likely as much as 3 years too early.

 

It should be noted that in 1933 – 1934, when Grace supplied this information for publication in the “Souvenir,” roughly 85 to 95 years had elapsed since the events of which she wrote had occurred.  Indeed, many of these events in the lives of the Jackson family occurred 20 to 30 years before Grace was even born, and over 3,000 miles away.  It is most fortunate that Grace knew and remembered what she did and it is with the Greatest of Thanks that she documented that knowledge in the “Souvenir.”

 

Page 52 of 79

 

Who was it then that correctly remembered and supplied “1848” as being the year of John Jackson’s emigration in his 1903 obituary notice?  The answer to that question may be John Lyman Jackson.  Grace stipulated in the “Souvenir” that John Jackson died in 1896 and that Mary died in 1894, whereas we know per the obits in the “Sullivan Review” that Mary died in May of 1900 and John died in September of 1903.  Grace went on to stipulate that as of 1934, the year the “Souvenir” was published, Martha (Jackson) Boyles, 3^rd child of John and Mary, was 88 yrs of age, which arithmetically makes 1846 the calculated year of her birth and which again points to and supports her assertion that 1846 was the year of John and Mary’s emigration.  Most odd is what appears to be Grace’s assertion that her husband, John Lyman Jackson, died in 1931, while his death certificate and gravestone both stipulate 1929 as the year of his death.  In Grace’s defense, I would suggest that this error is most likely an editing error that occurred prior to final publication, since I find it impossible to believe that she would have made this mistake.  (Regarding John Lyman Jackson’s significant dates, see Pages 9 and 77).

 

Grace enigmatically refers to the Jackson’s as being former “city dwellers” in England.  What city, she does not say.  Indeed, I never heard anybody mention Sheffield as being the city or general whereabouts of the Jackson’s British origins.  It was not until this year; beginning with this research in Jan of 2008, that evidence of the Jackson’s pre-1849 life in Sheffield came to light.

 

Grace’s account also includes anecdotal references to the Jackson’s love of music and to what Grace infers as being the Jackson’s inherent or genetically endowed music-making acumen and ability.  She mentions John Jackson being the founder of the “Hillsgrove Cornet Band,” as well as his leadership of and long-term involvement in it.   Grace also mentions William and John Jackson’s active participation in that Civil War era institution or activity commonly known as the Underground Railroad.

 

With this it can be concluded that the Jackson’s were a fundamentally happy and optimistic lot,  and that their prior life experience in what I have come to know to have been the labor-abusive reality of England of the 1830’s and 1840’s, (Sheffield most specifically), probably resulted in their having developed or acquired an acute sense of, and bad feelings about, slavery and labor abuse in any and all of its various forms.  After having extracted themselves from their own earlier harsh and futureless circumstances and being thus benefited by their new-found freedoms; it would follow as it appears: That they were most happy to aid in extending this same or similar opportunity of freedom to those who they perceived as being in equal or greater need of it.

 

Greatest Thanks are also extended to Grace for having mentioned the ship Tuscarora in her account, since without that there would simply have been no knowledge of it.  Most fortunately, the Tuscarora’s November 1848 Passenger Manifest was not lost to the ages, but is in storage and on microfilm at the U.S. National Archives, (Film M425, Reel 67, List 232).  As an aside, I will add that in Oct of 2005 the Passenger Manifest was transcribed and posted online at the ISTG website, (“Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild”).  The volunteer transcriber of the Tuscarora’s microfilmed Passenger Manifest was a certain Janice Peterson, who happens to live in Idaho.  I contacted her by email in Sept of 2007, and she was kind enough to send me her 7-page printed copy from microfilm which she used to transcribe the Tuscarora’s Nov 1848 Passenger List.  Other copies of this same Passenger List exist and are in the possession of Bill Brenchley and family.

 

Unfortunately, Grace’s account does not include the name of the ship that transported William Jackson and wife to the U.S., so for the time being, the ship as well as the voyage date, or year, will continue to be Known Unknowns.

 

Page 53 of 79

 

The Ship Tuscarora

 

After a great deal of online searching and researching, I managed to collect a considerable amount of information regarding the Tuscarora.  Briefly, the information collected included the ship’s beginning in 1848 at Philadelphia, as well as its end in 1873 off the coast of Spain, where she sank during a severe storm; taking along with her the Captain, 14 crew members and 3,650 bales of cotton.

 

At the time of its launching: 15 Feb 1848, the Tuscarora was the largest ship of its kind ever built in Philadelphia.  It was also the 2^nd ship of this name owned by the A.& H. Cope Line in Philadelphia.  “A.” and “H.” were Alfred and Henry Cope respectively; the sons of Thomas Pym Cope, a Quaker businessman and founder of the Cope Shipping Line.  The first ship of this name was sold-off to a whaling concern in Massachusetts earlier in the 1840’s.  The 2^nd Tuscarora was much larger than the first, weighing-in at around 1231 tons; while the 1^st Tuscarora weighed-in at around 395 tons.  The Tuscarora in 1848 was a 3-masted sailing vessel, and was not equipped with steam power of any kind.  The 360 passengers on board the Tuscarora who disembarked at Philadelphia in Nov of 1848, and which included John and Mary Jackson and family, were the first immigrant passengers this ship transported from Liverpool to Philadelphia.  Of this population of passengers, 9 were Cabin Class passengers, 35 were Second Class Cabin passengers, and the rest, 316, were Steerage Class passengers.  John and Mary Jackson and family were in Steerage.

 

The Watercolor Paintings of the Tuscarora

 

Research during the latter half of 2007 regarding the Cope Bros. Liverpool Line and the ship Tuscarora led me to an obscure web page at the Bryn Mawr College site.  Bryn Mawr College is a women’s liberal arts college, located 10 miles west of Philadelphia.  This particular web page was a simple list of paintings by a certain Philadelphia artist by the name of D. J. Kennedy.  The list also included painting titles and reference numbers, but did not indicate what the reference numbers meant or where these various listed works were housed, although I assumed that they were or might be somewhere at Bryn Mawr College.  The list included references to two paintings of a ship called “Tuscarora.”

 

I contacted an administrator relatively high up in the Bryn Mawr College organization and requested more information regarding the Tuscarora paintings and the web page references to them.  Evidently, my email was debated and discussed, and passed from one desk to another until finally winding-up a week or two later on the desk of the Bryn Mawr College Librarian who contacted me and explained that the web page I had found was a now defunct and unsupported student project of some sort that had somehow become spuriously linked to the college website.  She went on to tell me that after much discussion, it was determined that the paintings I was interested in were not at Bryn Mawr College, but were actually in the possession of the Historical Society of Pennsylvania (HSP) and that I should contact them for further information.

 

The HSP is located in Philadelphia and is a large organization.  Their website did not indicate in any great detail anything in its archives, since to do so would be impossible given what appears to be the enormity of its holdings.  To make a long story short, in early Oct of 2007, I managed to contact the person in charge of the “Rights and Reproductions Dept.,” a certain R. A. Friedman, who retrieved the two Tuscarora paintings in the HSP’s closed storage vaults.  After a round of emails back and forth, we determined that both of these paintings were of the 2nd Tuscarora and not the first ship of that name.  

Page 54 of 79

Interestingly, these two paintings depict the Tuscarora’s beginning as well as its demise. Fortunately, the artist, D. J. Kennedy, included a notation at the bottom of the earliest painting which reads in part:

“Philadelphia Packet Ship” Tuscarora” of Cope Bro’s, Liverpool Line”

“Sketched in the stream at Walnut Street Wharf Philadelphia in June 1848 by D. J. Kennedy”

This earliest watercolor image of the Tuscarora was painted 4 months after the ship was launched in Philadelphia in February of 1848, and 5 months prior to its return to Philadelphia from Liverpool in Nov of 1848 with John Jackson and family aboard.  In early-November of 2007, I ordered and received high quality digital images of both of the Tuscarora watercolor paintings from the HSP - about, if not in fact, 159 yrs to the day after John and Mary Jackson and family stepped off the Tuscarora at Philadelphia. 

At this juncture,  I am going to assert that the November date of the Passenger Manifest defines its having been drafted upon arrival in Philadelphia, and not upon departure at Liverpool.

==========================================================================

 

General Registry Office (GRO) System in Britain

 

In Britain, the General Registry Office (GRO) is responsible for registering all Births, Marriages and Deaths, (BMD’s).  The GRO System was implemented beginning in Sept of 1837.  All post-Sept 1837 BMD’s are searchable and orderable using the GRO system, while pre-Sept 1837 BMD’s are not.  Those records that exist and which pre-date Sept 1837 are commonly referred to as being in the “black hole” of non-transcribed information, and unattainable using the GRO system.  For a fee, searches can be conducted by persons available in the districts where those “black hole” records are archived, but it is or can be time-consuming and fairly expensive.

 

Much, but not all, of the information in the “black hole” was filmed by the Church of Latter Day Saints (the LDS) and can be found at their online site: FamilySearch.org.  However, at some point, some Districts in Britain either halted or did not permit the LDS access to their archived records for filming, (see Pages 61 – 62 for further clarification).

 

I conducted a massive amount of searching online, using several British research sites as well as Ancestry.com in my attempts to discover the answers to the following Known Unknowns:

 

1. Which family, if any, in the 1841 UK Census is the correct William Jackson family?
2. The identity of William Jackson’s 1st wife; her first name and maiden surname if possible.
3. The date of William Jackson’s 1^st wife’s death, hoping that it may possibly have occurred post Sept 1837, since Sept 1837 is the earliest searchable start date using the GRO system.
4. The date of William Jackson’s 2^nd marriage and his 2^nd wife’s identity, and hopefully thereby resolve the discrepancy between the 1850 US Census record that William’s 2^nd wife was “Martha” and  Grace’s assertion in the “Souvenir” that William’s 2^nd wife was “Mary.”
5. The identity of “Jack” (son of Mary Goslip, per Grace’s account in the “Souvenir”).
6. The year of William Jackson’s immigration to the U.S., along with his 2^nd wife “Mary (Goslip)” and her son, “Jack.”
7. The identity and relationship of “Ann Glossip” (per the Tuscarora’s 1848 Passenger List) to the Jackson’s and possibly “Jack Goslip” (John Glossop presumed).
8. The fates in the U.S. of Ann “Glossip” and her two children: Jane and John “Glossip.”

 

Page 55 of 79

 

I don’t now recall the precise order and nature of all of the searches I conducted because there were so many and they were so varied and because I utilized several online search sites.  The primary online sites I used were: “FreeBMD,” “FamilySearch.org,” “Sheffield Records Online,” and “Sheffield Indexers.”  At least a few of the BMD’s that I subsequently ordered as a result of these searches turned out to be “no hitters,” as in: incorrect brides and the like, but even those are useful and informative in their own exclusionary way.  Most useful and informative of all, however, were the 1841 UK Census searches per “Sheffield Records Online,” as well as the “hits” - the hits being those searches at FreeBMD that resulted in certificates ordered from GRO that were certifiably correct for the various people and events in question:

 

The William Jackson family in Sheffield, 1841 UK Census

 

In all, per Sheffield Records Online, there were 5 Jackson families living in Sheffield when the 1841 UK Census was conducted that were each headed by a William Jackson whose recorded “census age” fell somewhere between 45 and 50 yrs of age; 45-50 being the expected and required age range within which William, father of John Jackson, must have been at that time.  One of these 5 families appears again in the 1851 UK Census and was therefore eliminated from the initial 1841 group since it is known that my/our William Jackson was in the US by that time.  Of the remaining 4 families, there was one and only one family which included more than a few children as well as an apparent or seeming wife of similar age to William whose first name was “Martha.”  My first thought was that if I assume this family to be the correct Jackson family, then this “Martha” might be the 1^st wife of William Jackson based on two purely circumstantial reasons or suspicions:

 

1. The record at FamilySearch.org of a William Jackson marriage to a “Martha Sidney” at Bolton Upon Dearne in 1813, (see Pages 33-34).

 

2. The fact that the first female child born to John & Mary Jackson was Sarah, (b. 1845), evidently or seemingly named after Mary’s mother: Sarah Bagshaw, and that possibly and presumptively the next female child, which they named Martha, (b. 1848), they may likewise have named after John’s mother, who was possibly and presumptively: Martha.

 

For the sake of brevity I will only list the William Jackson family which I intuitively focused on and will not list all 4 of the 1841 William Jackson families.  The family in question appears as follows in the 1841 UK Census per “Sheffield Records Online”:

 

Name	Age	Address	Piece_No	ED	Folio	Reg_Dist
William JACKSON	45	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
Martha JACKSON	50	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
Thomas JACKSON	20	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
Charles JACKSON	20	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
Mary JACKSON	15	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
William JACKSON	12	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park
Henry JACKSON	10	Castle Yard Manor	1336/7	18	51a	Sheffield Park

 

Source: http://www.sheffieldrecordsonline.org.uk/

 

Page 56 of 79

 

According to the 1850 US Census in Hillsgrove, William was recorded as living with a presumed wife “Martha,” in contradiction to Grace Jackson’s assertion that William’s 2^nd wife was named “Mary.”  William’s age in the 1850 US Census was recorded as 58 and Martha’s, 60.  The 1841 UK Census names and ages of William and Martha square seemingly perfectly with the names and ages of William and Martha in 1850 US Census…:

 

In the 1841 UK Census, recorded ages of persons over 15 yrs of age were rounded-down to the next lowest multiple of 5 if their exact ages were not exact multiples of 5, making William’s age anywhere between 45 and 49 and Martha’s age anywhere between 50 and 54.   If we assume that in 1841 William was actually 49 and Martha was actually 51, then their respective ages as well as their names as recorded 9 yrs later in Hillsgrove agree perfectly.

 

With this revelation, I tentatively determined that this 1841 Martha must be William’s 2^nd wife; that Grace was incorrect about her name being Mary; that the 1850 US Census record listing “Martha” was correct; that William’s 1^st wife likely died well before 1841, and that the record of his 1^st wife’s death probably exists somewhere in the pre-Sept 1837 “black hole” of British BMD records.  I also suspected the very real possibility that both of William’s wives may have been named Martha.

 

 

Martha Jackson Death (1^st wife of William Jackson)

 

July 31, 2008

On this date with a view toward determining who the real 1841 Martha Jackson was, (either the 1^st or the 2^nd wife of William), and using the online source: FreeBMD, I searched all “Martha Jackson’s” who died in Sheffield between Sept 1837 (the earliest searchable GRO date possible) and Dec 1845.  I chose 1845 as being the cut-off year for this search, since William Jackson would have had to have time to find, court and ultimately wed a 2^nd wife prior to emigration to the U.S.  I also anticipated that a Death Certificate would likely not cast too much certainty on this particular family of Jackson’s (the Castle Yard Manor family above) as being the correct William Jackson family since the information recorded on the Certificate would likely indicate that the “informant” of this death would either be the head of the household: the uncertified William Jackson, or some other unknown and uncertified person.  The search results were as follows:

 

Surname    First name(s)   Age  District